Debating Fundamentalists…

For some reason this just resonated with me… LOL!

be blessed,

iggy

Debating Fundamentalists…

For some reason this just resonated with me… LOL!

be blessed,

iggy

Is Doug Pagitt a Universalist? Truth war update!

Is Doug Pagitt a Universalist?

I was poking around and keep running into people who claim Doug is a Universalist…

Here is one example;

“Doug Pagitt is apparently one of the spokespeople for the emergent movement. His well reasoned response to the charge of universalism can be found here. Too much. Just too much. To give you a feel for the discussion, you can hear his views as they were broadcast here and here. Pagitt disagrees with the dualistic-Platonic understanding of the cosmos and denies heaven as a real place.”

–>Interestingly as I read this I went to Doug’s supposed admission (Ironically linked above) or whatever and found rather slanderous accusations by John MacArthur against Doug.

Now this all starts in an interview at Crosswalk.com

“Edwards: [When “Emergents” and many seeker-sensitive church advocates say “We do church a certain way,”] it seems to me that they do it by totally ignoring the book of Acts and the Epistles.”

“John MacArthur: Let me just cut to the chase on this one: [Doug] Pagitt is a Universalist. What he was saying is real simple. He was saying when you die your spirit goes to God and judgment means that whatever was not right about you, whatever was bad about you, whatever was substantially lacking about you, gets all resolved. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a Buddhist, a Hindu or a Muslim—doesn’t matter whether you’re a Christian really; we’re all going to end up in this wonderful, warm and fuzzy relationship with God. That’s just classic universalism.
I think you know it’s most helpful, Paul, to go back and kind of recast how we view these people. He’s not a pastor; he’s not a Christian; that’s not a church. When you call yourself a Christian and you call yourself a pastor and you say you have a church, all of that has to be—to be legitimate—defined biblically. And if it’s not, that’s not a church and you’re not a pastor and you’re not even a Christian. What you have here is a form of false religion”

BTW Doug was “classic” in his interjections…

Yet, as one reads further, we find something interesting that Doug states…

“A couple of thoughts.

For those who want me to respond to allegations of being a universalist and a false teacher I will say I am not.But for most that will not suffice. I have written a number of books on this topic and have one coming in May called A Christianity Worth Believing. But I am also sure that all this will not remove such concerns.

And more importantly, thank you all for the kind words but do know that I am not at all hurt by such comments nor do I feel attacked. I feel sorry that people would talk about each other like I was talked about in the interview, but that is more on principle than personal hurtfulness.
So, please feel free to send all your good wishes and concerns but know also that what we read each week as a community of Solomon’s Porch from Jude is true –

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!

Amen.
Posted by: Doug Pagitt December 12, 2007 at 08:59 AM “

So, I wonder which side of the ”Truth” those are, who must defend their truth and their god who cannot defend himself?

Jeremiah 50:34

“Yet their Redeemer is strong; the LORD Almighty is his name. He will vigorously defend their cause so that he may bring rest to their land, but unrest to those who live in Babylon.”

Isaiah 51:22

“This is what your Sovereign LORD says, your God, who defends his people: “See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath, you will never drink again.”

Yep, I will stand back and let God defend me… I think that I will believe the bible over anyone who uses slander and lies to defend their god in some false “truth” war.

iggy

Is Doug Pagitt a Universalist? Truth war update!

Is Doug Pagitt a Universalist?

I was poking around and keep running into people who claim Doug is a Universalist…

Here is one example;

“Doug Pagitt is apparently one of the spokespeople for the emergent movement. His well reasoned response to the charge of universalism can be found here. Too much. Just too much. To give you a feel for the discussion, you can hear his views as they were broadcast here and here. Pagitt disagrees with the dualistic-Platonic understanding of the cosmos and denies heaven as a real place.”

–>Interestingly as I read this I went to Doug’s supposed admission (Ironically linked above) or whatever and found rather slanderous accusations by John MacArthur against Doug.

Now this all starts in an interview at Crosswalk.com

“Edwards: [When “Emergents” and many seeker-sensitive church advocates say “We do church a certain way,”] it seems to me that they do it by totally ignoring the book of Acts and the Epistles.”

“John MacArthur: Let me just cut to the chase on this one: [Doug] Pagitt is a Universalist. What he was saying is real simple. He was saying when you die your spirit goes to God and judgment means that whatever was not right about you, whatever was bad about you, whatever was substantially lacking about you, gets all resolved. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a Buddhist, a Hindu or a Muslim—doesn’t matter whether you’re a Christian really; we’re all going to end up in this wonderful, warm and fuzzy relationship with God. That’s just classic universalism.
I think you know it’s most helpful, Paul, to go back and kind of recast how we view these people. He’s not a pastor; he’s not a Christian; that’s not a church. When you call yourself a Christian and you call yourself a pastor and you say you have a church, all of that has to be—to be legitimate—defined biblically. And if it’s not, that’s not a church and you’re not a pastor and you’re not even a Christian. What you have here is a form of false religion”

BTW Doug was “classic” in his interjections…

Yet, as one reads further, we find something interesting that Doug states…

“A couple of thoughts.

For those who want me to respond to allegations of being a universalist and a false teacher I will say I am not.But for most that will not suffice. I have written a number of books on this topic and have one coming in May called A Christianity Worth Believing. But I am also sure that all this will not remove such concerns.

And more importantly, thank you all for the kind words but do know that I am not at all hurt by such comments nor do I feel attacked. I feel sorry that people would talk about each other like I was talked about in the interview, but that is more on principle than personal hurtfulness.
So, please feel free to send all your good wishes and concerns but know also that what we read each week as a community of Solomon’s Porch from Jude is true –

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!

Amen.
Posted by: Doug Pagitt December 12, 2007 at 08:59 AM “

So, I wonder which side of the ”Truth” those are, who must defend their truth and their god who cannot defend himself?

Jeremiah 50:34

“Yet their Redeemer is strong; the LORD Almighty is his name. He will vigorously defend their cause so that he may bring rest to their land, but unrest to those who live in Babylon.”

Isaiah 51:22

“This is what your Sovereign LORD says, your God, who defends his people: “See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath, you will never drink again.”

Yep, I will stand back and let God defend me… I think that I will believe the bible over anyone who uses slander and lies to defend their god in some false “truth” war.

iggy

The Gospel According to John MacArthur

John W. Robbins wrote an interesting article that when I read it I had to laugh as much of what i have found true of Macarthur’s “Gospel” is stated by Dr. Robbins.

A bit about J.W. Robbins. First he is no fly by night “Trout” anti MacArthur propagandist. In fact even if much that is right on about some of those guys, there is also much to be said about staying away from them also. So many that “attack” MacArthur are on the fringe.

Now though there are many that are biblical scholars that stand up and review the actual theology of MacArthur. I see Dr. Robbins in this category.

Here is his bio.

Here is a bit of the article on John MacArthur’s theology:

“MacArthur rejects the Biblical view of justification and adopts the Roman Catholic view: “Many people believe justified means ‘just-as-if-I’d-never-sinned.’ In other words, God says, ‘I count you righteous even though you’re really not.’ It is true that God makes that declaration, but there is also a reality of righteousness. We are not only declared righteous; we are made righteous”(Justification by Faith, 1988, 98). This making righteous is accomplished by infusing Christ’s righteousness into Christians: “God actually credits righteousness to our account. He imputes righteousness to us; he infuses divine life into us. He regenerates and sanctifies us. He makes the unholy holy, and therefore declares that we are righteous…. There is a reality–God gives us righteousness, and thus he can declare that we are righteous” (Justification, 121). MacArthur writes: “The believing sinner is justified by righteousness infused into him” (Justification, 122).”

Here is the whole article.

Download the PDF version of this review.

Here is a link to the The Westminster Confession of Faith at the Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics

Be blessed,
iggy

The Gospel According to John MacArthur

John W. Robbins wrote an interesting article that when I read it I had to laugh as much of what i have found true of Macarthur’s “Gospel” is stated by Dr. Robbins.

A bit about J.W. Robbins. First he is no fly by night “Trout” anti MacArthur propagandist. In fact even if much that is right on about some of those guys, there is also much to be said about staying away from them also. So many that “attack” MacArthur are on the fringe.

Now though there are many that are biblical scholars that stand up and review the actual theology of MacArthur. I see Dr. Robbins in this category.

Here is his bio.

Here is a bit of the article on John MacArthur’s theology:

“MacArthur rejects the Biblical view of justification and adopts the Roman Catholic view: “Many people believe justified means ‘just-as-if-I’d-never-sinned.’ In other words, God says, ‘I count you righteous even though you’re really not.’ It is true that God makes that declaration, but there is also a reality of righteousness. We are not only declared righteous; we are made righteous”(Justification by Faith, 1988, 98). This making righteous is accomplished by infusing Christ’s righteousness into Christians: “God actually credits righteousness to our account. He imputes righteousness to us; he infuses divine life into us. He regenerates and sanctifies us. He makes the unholy holy, and therefore declares that we are righteous…. There is a reality–God gives us righteousness, and thus he can declare that we are righteous” (Justification, 121). MacArthur writes: “The believing sinner is justified by righteousness infused into him” (Justification, 122).”

Here is the whole article.

Download the PDF version of this review.

Here is a link to the The Westminster Confession of Faith at the Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics

Be blessed,
iggy

Doug Padgitt and a stolen bit from my other blog site.

First off those at mychurch.com will notice that this was a comment in the last post. But since this blog is originally at Blogger.com, not everyone has read those comments.

I finally listened to Doug Padgitt on Way of the Master Radio… and first off… Todd Friel is truly a rude individual. Doug did a great job. What I noticed is that this will of course be touted as Doug is a heretic and a win for their side… but I see that Doug pointed out the issues that are in the so called “systematic theology” that Todd was pushing on that site. I do wish Doug expounded a bit on the difference of Todd’s version of “systematic theology” and true “systematic theology” as Todd just pieced about four out of context quotes of Jesus and ran them together in a sick display of proof-texting that only showed that Todd was proving his own preconceived doctrine.

Now, I do also wish Doug (who I admit sounded a bit arrogant, yet truly under the conditions was way beyond being gracious to Todd’s rudeness) also unpacked a bit more on the idea of the narrative story that he believes… I do get that “Heaven is not a place” in the sense that Doug pointed out to Todd, yet confess it is a bit hard to wrap one’s mind around if all you know is the view that Todd has been taught and which as Tony Jones pointed out about 90% of Christianity believes… so I do see Doug could have slowed down and walked Todd through this a bit.

Yet, that being my only real critique that thing that is being touted is that Doug stated that a Muslim or Buddhist will enter the New Creation… in other words that he stated that someone can be saved without Jesus. To be truthful, after listening to it twice I did not hear Doug say that. I heard that all men will be judged the same. I also heard that we are to lead people to Christ Jesus. I do wish Doug connected the thoughts.

Now we are dealing with people who have an escapist mentality and theology… they believe in the “Left Behind” theology that truly even distorts the traditional “Rapture” theology. These people do not see that judgment is a good thing that will set things right… and Doug alluded to a bit stating that anything that is not of God will be purged… (Sorry I can’t remember the exact phrase he used).

The flip side is that if one is on the other side of this judgment then you will be purged also.

Interestingly, Todd used the word “destroyed” when talking about people being judged… I see that if Todd believes that in his own “systematic theology” then he is a heretic as a person cannot be “destroyed” and be “tormented forever” for a destroyed person does not exist!

Which leads me to these thoughts which were a bit in the same vein as the conversation lead my at mychurch.com site.

I find it interesting that much that is taught in Romans 9 is that some are created for wrath and some are created for mercy… and then most Calvinists stop at verse 18 or 24… yet in the next few verses, Paul does the punchline and states that those very vessels of wrath did not seek God and found Him, while the vessels of mercy had God and now were to be judged by God.

What that means is that many are being deceived that they are vessels of mercy by definition of Calvin when in fact it is about Jew and Gentile being made into one man and the Jew thinking he is saved by being a descendant of Abraham by blood and have turned faith into works, are now vessels of wrath, while the Gentiles which were considered the vessels of wrath, are not vessels of mercy! And this all by Grace!

Again, it is in this subtle misunderstanding that I see things go askew with Calvinism.Now, as I stated, I see Arninianism having some quirks also… and many lean on works to maintain salvation which negates Galatians chapter 3 or really the whole book of Galatians as well the bulk of Paul’s writings.

Still I see both as branches of Christianity, and in a sense both polluted by Gnostic/Platonic dualism which makes the whole a little warped as it over emphasizes the existing heaven and hell as eternal destinations and goal of our faith over salvation and eternal life in the New Heaven and New Earth… I just see that many are trapped in a faulty theology that denies that Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire and in one breath state men will burn forever and the other that they will be destroyed… it can’t be both… but that is what is taught…

The New Creation, that we are now a part of as of the Resurrection and are called by Paul as believers… is the continuation and regeneration of all Creation being restored to and maybe beyond its original glory… I see that like we are resurrected and clothed in the imperishable it will still be us, that this will still be the earth and heaven only also clothed or purged of all evil and sin and what a glory that will be to behold.

be blessed,
iggy

Doug Padgitt and a stolen bit from my other blog site.

First off those at mychurch.com will notice that this was a comment in the last post. But since this blog is originally at Blogger.com, not everyone has read those comments.

I finally listened to Doug Padgitt on Way of the Master Radio… and first off… Todd Friel is truly a rude individual. Doug did a great job. What I noticed is that this will of course be touted as Doug is a heretic and a win for their side… but I see that Doug pointed out the issues that are in the so called “systematic theology” that Todd was pushing on that site. I do wish Doug expounded a bit on the difference of Todd’s version of “systematic theology” and true “systematic theology” as Todd just pieced about four out of context quotes of Jesus and ran them together in a sick display of proof-texting that only showed that Todd was proving his own preconceived doctrine.

Now, I do also wish Doug (who I admit sounded a bit arrogant, yet truly under the conditions was way beyond being gracious to Todd’s rudeness) also unpacked a bit more on the idea of the narrative story that he believes… I do get that “Heaven is not a place” in the sense that Doug pointed out to Todd, yet confess it is a bit hard to wrap one’s mind around if all you know is the view that Todd has been taught and which as Tony Jones pointed out about 90% of Christianity believes… so I do see Doug could have slowed down and walked Todd through this a bit.

Yet, that being my only real critique that thing that is being touted is that Doug stated that a Muslim or Buddhist will enter the New Creation… in other words that he stated that someone can be saved without Jesus. To be truthful, after listening to it twice I did not hear Doug say that. I heard that all men will be judged the same. I also heard that we are to lead people to Christ Jesus. I do wish Doug connected the thoughts.

Now we are dealing with people who have an escapist mentality and theology… they believe in the “Left Behind” theology that truly even distorts the traditional “Rapture” theology. These people do not see that judgment is a good thing that will set things right… and Doug alluded to a bit stating that anything that is not of God will be purged… (Sorry I can’t remember the exact phrase he used).

The flip side is that if one is on the other side of this judgment then you will be purged also.

Interestingly, Todd used the word “destroyed” when talking about people being judged… I see that if Todd believes that in his own “systematic theology” then he is a heretic as a person cannot be “destroyed” and be “tormented forever” for a destroyed person does not exist!

Which leads me to these thoughts which were a bit in the same vein as the conversation lead my at mychurch.com site.

I find it interesting that much that is taught in Romans 9 is that some are created for wrath and some are created for mercy… and then most Calvinists stop at verse 18 or 24… yet in the next few verses, Paul does the punchline and states that those very vessels of wrath did not seek God and found Him, while the vessels of mercy had God and now were to be judged by God.

What that means is that many are being deceived that they are vessels of mercy by definition of Calvin when in fact it is about Jew and Gentile being made into one man and the Jew thinking he is saved by being a descendant of Abraham by blood and have turned faith into works, are now vessels of wrath, while the Gentiles which were considered the vessels of wrath, are not vessels of mercy! And this all by Grace!

Again, it is in this subtle misunderstanding that I see things go askew with Calvinism.Now, as I stated, I see Arninianism having some quirks also… and many lean on works to maintain salvation which negates Galatians chapter 3 or really the whole book of Galatians as well the bulk of Paul’s writings.

Still I see both as branches of Christianity, and in a sense both polluted by Gnostic/Platonic dualism which makes the whole a little warped as it over emphasizes the existing heaven and hell as eternal destinations and goal of our faith over salvation and eternal life in the New Heaven and New Earth… I just see that many are trapped in a faulty theology that denies that Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire and in one breath state men will burn forever and the other that they will be destroyed… it can’t be both… but that is what is taught…

The New Creation, that we are now a part of as of the Resurrection and are called by Paul as believers… is the continuation and regeneration of all Creation being restored to and maybe beyond its original glory… I see that like we are resurrected and clothed in the imperishable it will still be us, that this will still be the earth and heaven only also clothed or purged of all evil and sin and what a glory that will be to behold.

be blessed,
iggy

I forgot about mychurch…

I forgot at some point I signed up for mychurch.com and had my blog at blogger.com being posted there also… the last post on “John MacArthur: Can one be an Arminian and still be saved?” has been developing some interesting conversation over there.

Be blessed,

iggy

I forgot about mychurch…

I forgot at some point I signed up for mychurch.com and had my blog at blogger.com being posted there also… the last post on “John MacArthur: Can one be an Arminian and still be saved?” has been developing some interesting conversation over there.

Be blessed,

iggy