Archive for the ‘rapture’ Category

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Greg Boyd and the Rapture

June 11, 2011
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Some reasons I do not believe in the Rapture

June 5, 2009

I opened a can of worms on Facebook so I thought I might add to the conversation why I do not believe in the Rapture. First here are a few resources to show I am not alone.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=2566

Note that the rapture (if true) and second coming are two separate events.

http://www.catholicbible101.com/therapture.htm

Note that in the article it raises the issue of “a coming” of Jesus verse “the coming” of Jesus. If the Rapture is true then there would be 3 times that Jesus returns. The bible teaches only a second coming and not three. Some teach that Jesus comes but does not touch down… and where is that in the bible… no where.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Christianity-Christian-Living-1401/2009/5/Rapture-2.htm

This is a great reference which also brings out some interesting points such as the points on the “hinderer”. If the hinderer is the Holy Spirit then no one can be saved after the Rapture. If it is the church, then again, since the church is the Body of Christ, no one can be part of the Body of Christ as it is taken away… thus again… no one can be saved after the Rapture. This causes many issues as almost all “rapture” believers claim people will be saved if:

1. They do not take the mark of the beast and are beheaded. Yet, that would be works salvation and we are saved by Grace through faith and not works.
2. Those left that are sub Christians (like those who do not believe in the Rapture) are to become martyrs. Though they believe in Jesus, they must now prove their faith. Again, if this is true, then no one else can come to faith in Jesus as there is no Holy Spirit and no church.

Though some try to claim the early church fathers taught the Rapture, there is no real text that proves this. The claim that imminent return means rapture again is not proof as they taught the second coming. There is no reference to a return of Jesus that would be like the Rapture. All talk of the Resurrection of the dead…

On that note the bible teaches that the dead shall rise first. So either the bible is wrong as it teaches the dead will rise and be judged first or the Rapture people who claim that the living will also be raised is right. I think I will trust the bible. Also, the references the Rapture believers use are mostly about the Resurrection. At that time all people dead and alive will be clothed in the imperishable and incorruptible. The other references took place in 70ad with the judgment and destruction of the Temple. The one is taken and one is left actually shows that those take are taken to judgment and not to new life.

Matthew 24 is clear about this if you simply read it:

36. “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39. and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42. “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

Note that Jesus states that “as it was in the days of Noah so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man” then states that “the flood came and took them away”. These people were not saved but judged. Then Jesus states that two are standing and one is taken… where? To be judged… not saved. Reading it in context shows this is so… it takes a bit of twisting of the text to make it read that the one’s taken are saved… yet Jesus stated that just as those taken in the flood, (who all died) so will be those who are take at the Coming of the Son of Man. Note also as you read on this is supported:

43. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45. “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46. It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, `My master is staying away a long time,’ 49. and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Note that Jesus states that when He returns He will come to judge and those found with hypocrisy will be cut to pieces and assigned to the place of hypocrites. These people are taken away to be judges… not saved.

There are many other inconsistencies such as that the 144,000 will be evangelists… yet if you look at Rev 14 you will not find this taught… in fact the only evangelist in the passage is an angel and not the 144,000.

The narrative of the Bible does not teach rapture but resurrection. The narrative I see is that Jesus will return the second time and not return to heaven with believers but sit in Jerusalem and begin the final judgment.

Now I am a partial preterist as I believe much of the prophecy that is used for the rapture took place in 70ad. Yet I am only a partial preterist and see that the book of Revelation prophesizes of “things that are and that will come.” (Rev 1:19)

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Some reasons I do not believe in the Rapture

June 5, 2009

I opened a can of worms on Facebook so I thought I might add to the conversation why I do not believe in the Rapture. First here are a few resources to show I am not alone.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=2566

Note that the rapture (if true) and second coming are two separate events.

http://www.catholicbible101.com/therapture.htm

Note that in the article it raises the issue of “a coming” of Jesus verse “the coming” of Jesus. If the Rapture is true then there would be 3 times that Jesus returns. The bible teaches only a second coming and not three. Some teach that Jesus comes but does not touch down… and where is that in the bible… no where.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Christianity-Christian-Living-1401/2009/5/Rapture-2.htm

This is a great reference which also brings out some interesting points such as the points on the “hinderer”. If the hinderer is the Holy Spirit then no one can be saved after the Rapture. If it is the church, then again, since the church is the Body of Christ, no one can be part of the Body of Christ as it is taken away… thus again… no one can be saved after the Rapture. This causes many issues as almost all “rapture” believers claim people will be saved if:

1. They do not take the mark of the beast and are beheaded. Yet, that would be works salvation and we are saved by Grace through faith and not works.
2. Those left that are sub Christians (like those who do not believe in the Rapture) are to become martyrs. Though they believe in Jesus, they must now prove their faith. Again, if this is true, then no one else can come to faith in Jesus as there is no Holy Spirit and no church.

Though some try to claim the early church fathers taught the Rapture, there is no real text that proves this. The claim that imminent return means rapture again is not proof as they taught the second coming. There is no reference to a return of Jesus that would be like the Rapture. All talk of the Resurrection of the dead…

On that note the bible teaches that the dead shall rise first. So either the bible is wrong as it teaches the dead will rise and be judged first or the Rapture people who claim that the living will also be raised is right. I think I will trust the bible. Also, the references the Rapture believers use are mostly about the Resurrection. At that time all people dead and alive will be clothed in the imperishable and incorruptible. The other references took place in 70ad with the judgment and destruction of the Temple. The one is taken and one is left actually shows that those take are taken to judgment and not to new life.

Matthew 24 is clear about this if you simply read it:

36. “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39. and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42. “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

Note that Jesus states that “as it was in the days of Noah so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man” then states that “the flood came and took them away”. These people were not saved but judged. Then Jesus states that two are standing and one is taken… where? To be judged… not saved. Reading it in context shows this is so… it takes a bit of twisting of the text to make it read that the one’s taken are saved… yet Jesus stated that just as those taken in the flood, (who all died) so will be those who are take at the Coming of the Son of Man. Note also as you read on this is supported:

43. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45. “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46. It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, `My master is staying away a long time,’ 49. and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Note that Jesus states that when He returns He will come to judge and those found with hypocrisy will be cut to pieces and assigned to the place of hypocrites. These people are taken away to be judges… not saved.

There are many other inconsistencies such as that the 144,000 will be evangelists… yet if you look at Rev 14 you will not find this taught… in fact the only evangelist in the passage is an angel and not the 144,000.

The narrative of the Bible does not teach rapture but resurrection. The narrative I see is that Jesus will return the second time and not return to heaven with believers but sit in Jerusalem and begin the final judgment.

Now I am a partial preterist as I believe much of the prophecy that is used for the rapture took place in 70ad. Yet I am only a partial preterist and see that the book of Revelation prophesizes of “things that are and that will come.” (Rev 1:19)

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The Rapture is Bull!

June 5, 2009

And now a deep theological discussion on the Rapture…

And her follow up!

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h1

The Rapture is Bull!

June 5, 2009

And now a deep theological discussion on the Rapture…

And her follow up!

var addthis_pub=”iggy”;
Bookmark and Share