Archive for July, 2006

h1

Hands

July 30, 2006

Hands!

A basketball in my hands is worth about $19.
A basketball in Michael Jordan’s hands is worth about $33 million.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

A baseball in my hands is worth about $6.
A baseball in Mark McGuire’s hands is worth $19 million.
It depends on whose hands it’s in.

A tennis racket is useless in my hands.
A tennis racket in Venus Williams’ hands is a championship winning.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

A rod in my hands will keep away a wild animal.
A rod in Moses’ hands will part the mighty sea.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

A sling shot in my hands is a kid’s toy.
A sling shot in David’s hand is a mighty weapon.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

Two fish and 5 loaves of bread in my hands is a couple of fish sandwiches.
Two fish and 5 loaves of bread in God’s hands will feed thousands.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

Nails in my hands might produce a birdhouse.
Nails in Jesus Christ’s hands will produce salvation for the entire world.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

Author unknown

Blessings,
iggy

h1

Hands

July 30, 2006

Hands!

A basketball in my hands is worth about $19.
A basketball in Michael Jordan’s hands is worth about $33 million.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

A baseball in my hands is worth about $6.
A baseball in Mark McGuire’s hands is worth $19 million.
It depends on whose hands it’s in.

A tennis racket is useless in my hands.
A tennis racket in Venus Williams’ hands is a championship winning.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

A rod in my hands will keep away a wild animal.
A rod in Moses’ hands will part the mighty sea.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

A sling shot in my hands is a kid’s toy.
A sling shot in David’s hand is a mighty weapon.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

Two fish and 5 loaves of bread in my hands is a couple of fish sandwiches.
Two fish and 5 loaves of bread in God’s hands will feed thousands.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

Nails in my hands might produce a birdhouse.
Nails in Jesus Christ’s hands will produce salvation for the entire world.
It depends whose hands it’s in.

Author unknown

Blessings,
iggy

h1

Emerging Church Asks Questions the Modern Church Ignores

July 30, 2006

Emerging Church Asks Questions the Modern Church Ignores

Recently a challenge was set out for “EC’ers worth their biblical salt”, (what ever that means) to answer some questions about Brian McLaren… yet I have not seen one Modern really address the issues we are discussing in the EC conversation. Many seem to deny that this is the “postmodern age” thus one is by default a “postmodern” just as living in the “modern age” made one a modern.

Yet, as a person of faith in Christ Jesus, it is not in the age we get our identity, not in the (Often vain) philosophies and ideals of that age, but rather in Christ Himself… In that the bible is clear we are to engage the culture in which we live, just as the early believers did following the Resurrection… as nothing has changed from the time of the Great Commission. That is to me the simplified understanding of being missional. To engage culture to spread the Good News, the same one they spread in scripture… that Jesus Christ is risen. (Acts 5:42).

We are to live out our faith… not let it stagnate in gospel ghettos, or Christianized national theologies (which is the reason that Hitler rose o power in Germany and no Christian churches stood up to him but accepted that the “Jews killed Jesus, so we should kill the Jews). To me if one reads some of the outtakes of Hitler’s speeches one will realize he had a form of Christianity… I see it as the pinnacle of “modernism” as it stood for supremacy through brute force… and even love was redefined as being radical politically and in their religion… in other words they combined the two in some sick hybrid Christianity of a National Faith…. Much like both the liberal left and conservative right to with their faith… it becomes a weapon of destruction instead of having the power to restore, heal, and reconcile… it is set on devouring those who oppose the ideals of that nations religious structure.

Now we can participate in our govt and I see that as the ‘right’ thing to do as a citizen. Yet, it should always be done by Christians from the view that we are not of this fallen world any more. We are citizens of Heaven now. Yet, I still see that that is where the modern church is heading… and the symptoms are in their speak… like “God hate fags” on the extreme along with abortion clinic bombings and on the other as God is used as a political tool to get votes by using the churches to promote govt social programs.

Jesus and the Church were never meant to be pawns or tools in man’s political structure. Jesus and the Church were never intended to spread an empire other than the Kingdom of God. To attach it to man’s agenda, we only see a sick twisted religion which faintly looks like Christianity (like the case of Hitler) or a weak anemic Christianity that is nothing but a nicety in it’s symbolism.

So the first real question I will ask is this:

  1. Why is modernism content with mixing Jesus and the church with a worldly political agenda?

In an article By Will McRaney FIRST-PERSON: Sharing Christ with the confused Feb 12, 2004 Baptist Press

“We live in a postmodern context in which people no longer are looking to the institutional church for answers to their deep spiritual questions and needs as their grandparents and parents did. Therefore, of the three major categories of evangelism — attraction, projection and media — projection strategies will have to play an increasing role: Like Jesus depended upon His disciples, the church will become increasingly dependent upon its body to communicate its message outside the walls of the church.”

Yet, the focus is most often not about “going to the lost”, but rather getting them to come to church… it is as though we replaced Jesus with the institution of church-ianity. It seems that the modern view of the gospel is to just sit in churches as send delegates (missionaries) to reach the world. Instead, we Christians are called to engage and live and to be like the Romans when in Rome… as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 9. This is not as some accuse Brian McLaren as saying, to “smoke, drink, fornicate, or party down” or whatever silliness moderns accuse EC’ers of teaching and doing… to quote Brian McLaren… and in context I might add as that is often not the case (most miss his sense of humor and tongue in cheek approach even if he points it out in the footnotes, they seem to see that twisting his words and adding their interpretation of what he says is the same as what he said… it seems that it is not just the Bible they do it with). Here is a quote from A Generous Orthodoxy on being Incarnational page 251:

“There are two things this incarnation ministry is not. It is not some kind of a dishonest spy network, where one pretends to be something one is not, like an internet pedophile who pretends to be a teenager so he can enter their trust, or like a network marketer who pretends to be your friend so he can add you to his down-line. And again, neither is it a kind of “everybody-is-okay/all-religions-are- equally true” relativist/pluralist tolerance, where I smoke weed with the Rastafarians, chant with the Hare Krishnas, bow toward Mecca with the Muslims, and dance with the Pentecostals because” it’s all good, it’s all fun, it’s all mellow, and it doesn’t matter which religion (if any?) you believed as long as you’re sincere, man” If you take what I am saying and turn it into either of these approaches, you’re smoking some kind of weed yourself, I think.”

With that I would agree entirely and the amazing thing I have seen Brian accused of saying that by people who claim to have read this very book! It is classick, “missing the point”. But I digress.

So the question is this:

2. Why are we focused on growing our own little empires, (Churches/denominations) and not focused on getting people to Jesus?

“Programs! Get your programs!” One of my personal critics is that we have become a programs driven church…. I hear it many times that “my church has some great programs.” And I fight from saying,”but do you know Jesus… have you ever been taught by the Holy Spirit?” I guess I am afraid they might not know how to answer. It seems we have become complacent with developing programs (which in and of themselves is not a bad thing) and instead of letting the Holy Spirit teach and lead, we make “converts” go through programs to show they are ready for ministry… this is also happening in our seminaries as young minds go to find more out about the church and Jesus and come out having reduced it all from a “LIFE LIVED” to a “system of theology” or “better programs”. I see great danger in losing sight of direct discipleship and becoming more of a program driven church… as we may fall victim to have a “form of godliness” and miss out a real opportunity to find Jesus. This also runs the risk of the error of the Pharisee who would keep perfect doctrine himself, yet give those under him a less stricter doctrine, which led Jesus to say, “ you make others twice as fit for hell as you are yourself.” (Matt 23)

So the question is this:

3. Why are modern churches content in programs over the Holy Spirit?

I will have more questions later… I am sure this is enough to chew on for a while.

Blessings
iggy


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h1

Emerging Church Asks Questions the Modern Church Ignores

July 30, 2006

Emerging Church Asks Questions the Modern Church Ignores

Recently a challenge was set out for “EC’ers worth their biblical salt”, (what ever that means) to answer some questions about Brian McLaren… yet I have not seen one Modern really address the issues we are discussing in the EC conversation. Many seem to deny that this is the “postmodern age” thus one is by default a “postmodern” just as living in the “modern age” made one a modern.

Yet, as a person of faith in Christ Jesus, it is not in the age we get our identity, not in the (Often vain) philosophies and ideals of that age, but rather in Christ Himself… In that the bible is clear we are to engage the culture in which we live, just as the early believers did following the Resurrection… as nothing has changed from the time of the Great Commission. That is to me the simplified understanding of being missional. To engage culture to spread the Good News, the same one they spread in scripture… that Jesus Christ is risen. (Acts 5:42).

We are to live out our faith… not let it stagnate in gospel ghettos, or Christianized national theologies (which is the reason that Hitler rose o power in Germany and no Christian churches stood up to him but accepted that the “Jews killed Jesus, so we should kill the Jews). To me if one reads some of the outtakes of Hitler’s speeches one will realize he had a form of Christianity… I see it as the pinnacle of “modernism” as it stood for supremacy through brute force… and even love was redefined as being radical politically and in their religion… in other words they combined the two in some sick hybrid Christianity of a National Faith…. Much like both the liberal left and conservative right to with their faith… it becomes a weapon of destruction instead of having the power to restore, heal, and reconcile… it is set on devouring those who oppose the ideals of that nations religious structure.

Now we can participate in our govt and I see that as the ‘right’ thing to do as a citizen. Yet, it should always be done by Christians from the view that we are not of this fallen world any more. We are citizens of Heaven now. Yet, I still see that that is where the modern church is heading… and the symptoms are in their speak… like “God hate fags” on the extreme along with abortion clinic bombings and on the other as God is used as a political tool to get votes by using the churches to promote govt social programs.

Jesus and the Church were never meant to be pawns or tools in man’s political structure. Jesus and the Church were never intended to spread an empire other than the Kingdom of God. To attach it to man’s agenda, we only see a sick twisted religion which faintly looks like Christianity (like the case of Hitler) or a weak anemic Christianity that is nothing but a nicety in it’s symbolism.

So the first real question I will ask is this:

  1. Why is modernism content with mixing Jesus and the church with a worldly political agenda?

In an article By Will McRaney FIRST-PERSON: Sharing Christ with the confused Feb 12, 2004 Baptist Press

“We live in a postmodern context in which people no longer are looking to the institutional church for answers to their deep spiritual questions and needs as their grandparents and parents did. Therefore, of the three major categories of evangelism — attraction, projection and media — projection strategies will have to play an increasing role: Like Jesus depended upon His disciples, the church will become increasingly dependent upon its body to communicate its message outside the walls of the church.”

Yet, the focus is most often not about “going to the lost”, but rather getting them to come to church… it is as though we replaced Jesus with the institution of church-ianity. It seems that the modern view of the gospel is to just sit in churches as send delegates (missionaries) to reach the world. Instead, we Christians are called to engage and live and to be like the Romans when in Rome… as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 9. This is not as some accuse Brian McLaren as saying, to “smoke, drink, fornicate, or party down” or whatever silliness moderns accuse EC’ers of teaching and doing… to quote Brian McLaren… and in context I might add as that is often not the case (most miss his sense of humor and tongue in cheek approach even if he points it out in the footnotes, they seem to see that twisting his words and adding their interpretation of what he says is the same as what he said… it seems that it is not just the Bible they do it with). Here is a quote from A Generous Orthodoxy on being Incarnational page 251:

“There are two things this incarnation ministry is not. It is not some kind of a dishonest spy network, where one pretends to be something one is not, like an internet pedophile who pretends to be a teenager so he can enter their trust, or like a network marketer who pretends to be your friend so he can add you to his down-line. And again, neither is it a kind of “everybody-is-okay/all-religions-are- equally true” relativist/pluralist tolerance, where I smoke weed with the Rastafarians, chant with the Hare Krishnas, bow toward Mecca with the Muslims, and dance with the Pentecostals because” it’s all good, it’s all fun, it’s all mellow, and it doesn’t matter which religion (if any?) you believed as long as you’re sincere, man” If you take what I am saying and turn it into either of these approaches, you’re smoking some kind of weed yourself, I think.”

With that I would agree entirely and the amazing thing I have seen Brian accused of saying that by people who claim to have read this very book! It is classick, “missing the point”. But I digress.

So the question is this:

2. Why are we focused on growing our own little empires, (Churches/denominations) and not focused on getting people to Jesus?

“Programs! Get your programs!” One of my personal critics is that we have become a programs driven church…. I hear it many times that “my church has some great programs.” And I fight from saying,”but do you know Jesus… have you ever been taught by the Holy Spirit?” I guess I am afraid they might not know how to answer. It seems we have become complacent with developing programs (which in and of themselves is not a bad thing) and instead of letting the Holy Spirit teach and lead, we make “converts” go through programs to show they are ready for ministry… this is also happening in our seminaries as young minds go to find more out about the church and Jesus and come out having reduced it all from a “LIFE LIVED” to a “system of theology” or “better programs”. I see great danger in losing sight of direct discipleship and becoming more of a program driven church… as we may fall victim to have a “form of godliness” and miss out a real opportunity to find Jesus. This also runs the risk of the error of the Pharisee who would keep perfect doctrine himself, yet give those under him a less stricter doctrine, which led Jesus to say, “ you make others twice as fit for hell as you are yourself.” (Matt 23)

So the question is this:

3. Why are modern churches content in programs over the Holy Spirit?

I will have more questions later… I am sure this is enough to chew on for a while.

Blessings
iggy


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h1

The last comment on Steve Camp

July 28, 2006

The last comment on Steve Camp

Sadly I was sucked into the false assumption Steve Camp really was trying to have a sincere conversation… it turns out he was not.

In our exchange I decided I did not want to subject myself to his abuse any longer… with that I withdrew myself from his blog. I did give him at least 2 times to prove to me he could be genuine yet as you can read below straight off his blog he continued his veiled hate language.

I will though answer his questions here….

http://www.blogger.com/profile/10279510 said…
Iggy
A few quick thoughts for you to humbly consider: 1. Are you going to answer the question about McLaren and church discipline? And if no, why not?

Iggy: I add your previous question just for clarity…

“Let me ask you one question that not one of you Ecers have ever addressed: Why haven’t you and others (Driscoll and Kimball too) called for church discipline against McLaren for his aberrant and heretical beliefs?”

Iggy: This is a very open ended question… and phrased like, “Are you still beating your wife?” but I will address my view on McLaren.

Brian McLaren is Brian and I am not… He has his views which some if you really understand what he is saying are very valid and need addressing from people like you who insist on name calling and finger pointing instead of addressing what he brings up.

Brian is like a school professor who engages his student to think. I have no problem thinking and even being challenged as I have gone into the issues he addresses and found that God was big enough for my questions, and my faith strong enough to grow even more in Christ even when I did not like or get the answer I was expecting. Mostly I have found by going through and processing my faith, much like Brian, I am more sure of my beliefs and have lost much of the none essential baggage.

Is Brian a heretic? Not to me, I think he has some challenging views and what many do is not understand that he is standing on a higher value of purity, especially on human sexuality… he believes we cannot separate homosexuality from the whole of human sexuality… we must deal with all the issues… like teen pregnancy, unwed parents, hetero fornicators… even a superficial look at his books one will find this out. He is for, that we go deeper into not allowing some sin to be ok and winked at, while other sin (homosexuality) is the ONE we harp on. It is way out of balance and we are alienating and losing many to hell because we are content in just calling them sinners.

I choose to live by the what Paul said, “15. It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” (Philippians 1)

I also see that scripture teaches not to judge for that is God territory… you see I believe the words of Jesus are true…yet, I will bet I only get a theological argument on the justification of judging others…

Matthew 7: 1. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4. How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5. You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6. “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
7. “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8.For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9. “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10. Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
11. If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
12. So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Also, consider Romans 14: 4. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

2. What I have said to you is not abuse, but dialogue. I thought you EC guys prided yourself on being able to engage anyone in a conversation of faith?

Iggy: It is abusive dialog… the case in point is in question number 4… “Glad to see that you don’t believe all that you say either.” You seem to not be able to comment with out a cutting remark or putdown… that is abuse Steve… plain and simple.

3. It’s not about winning; it’s about the truth of God being honored.

Iggy: I agree. That was sarcasm on my part… out of frustration that you just don’t get it… We EC are looking to all we can to honor God… you see that’s why we left the modern church, which is on display on you blog and here in your questions… do not bring God honor, but shame as it show a lack of regard for reconciliation and only wants to argue and be abusive, be divisive and judge and condemn… we see a much higher standard than doing those things to bring glory to God, and I personally will not lower my standards to those things if I can help it, which is why I am addressing you here on my blog and not on yours. For that is the attitude you are coming across with. I win, you lose. I’m right, you’re wrong… which is all in your wordings… so to you in all honesty it is all about winning. To me it is about growing in Christ…

4. You have said three times in a row that “this is my last response…” Glad to see that you don’t believe all that you say either.

Iggy: It only shows how welcome and loved I felt… that 3rd time … was a 3rd chance… remember Jesus and Peter?

Grace and peace,

Steve

Col. 1:9-14

Iggy: I am not sure of your definition of Grace or peace… but I am not sure I want yours… (yes that was as cutting as you comments, yet that is the why the warning against judging as you will be judge back the same way… that is the principle played out in case you miss it).

Col 1: 9. For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. 10. And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11. being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully 12. giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Yet, that would be my prayer for you also… as I do not think you realize what you are defending in defending the modern church… I would challenge you to study out what modernism really is before defending it so vehemently… you might be surprised as to what heretical things have cropped up into the church through it.

Blessings,
iggy


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h1

The last comment on Steve Camp

July 28, 2006

The last comment on Steve Camp

Sadly I was sucked into the false assumption Steve Camp really was trying to have a sincere conversation… it turns out he was not.

In our exchange I decided I did not want to subject myself to his abuse any longer… with that I withdrew myself from his blog. I did give him at least 2 times to prove to me he could be genuine yet as you can read below straight off his blog he continued his veiled hate language.

I will though answer his questions here….

http://www.blogger.com/profile/10279510 said…
Iggy
A few quick thoughts for you to humbly consider: 1. Are you going to answer the question about McLaren and church discipline? And if no, why not?

Iggy: I add your previous question just for clarity…

“Let me ask you one question that not one of you Ecers have ever addressed: Why haven’t you and others (Driscoll and Kimball too) called for church discipline against McLaren for his aberrant and heretical beliefs?”

Iggy: This is a very open ended question… and phrased like, “Are you still beating your wife?” but I will address my view on McLaren.

Brian McLaren is Brian and I am not… He has his views which some if you really understand what he is saying are very valid and need addressing from people like you who insist on name calling and finger pointing instead of addressing what he brings up.

Brian is like a school professor who engages his student to think. I have no problem thinking and even being challenged as I have gone into the issues he addresses and found that God was big enough for my questions, and my faith strong enough to grow even more in Christ even when I did not like or get the answer I was expecting. Mostly I have found by going through and processing my faith, much like Brian, I am more sure of my beliefs and have lost much of the none essential baggage.

Is Brian a heretic? Not to me, I think he has some challenging views and what many do is not understand that he is standing on a higher value of purity, especially on human sexuality… he believes we cannot separate homosexuality from the whole of human sexuality… we must deal with all the issues… like teen pregnancy, unwed parents, hetero fornicators… even a superficial look at his books one will find this out. He is for, that we go deeper into not allowing some sin to be ok and winked at, while other sin (homosexuality) is the ONE we harp on. It is way out of balance and we are alienating and losing many to hell because we are content in just calling them sinners.

I choose to live by the what Paul said, “15. It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” (Philippians 1)

I also see that scripture teaches not to judge for that is God territory… you see I believe the words of Jesus are true…yet, I will bet I only get a theological argument on the justification of judging others…

Matthew 7: 1. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4. How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5. You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6. “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
7. “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8.For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9. “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10. Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
11. If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
12. So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Also, consider Romans 14: 4. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

2. What I have said to you is not abuse, but dialogue. I thought you EC guys prided yourself on being able to engage anyone in a conversation of faith?

Iggy: It is abusive dialog… the case in point is in question number 4… “Glad to see that you don’t believe all that you say either.” You seem to not be able to comment with out a cutting remark or putdown… that is abuse Steve… plain and simple.

3. It’s not about winning; it’s about the truth of God being honored.

Iggy: I agree. That was sarcasm on my part… out of frustration that you just don’t get it… We EC are looking to all we can to honor God… you see that’s why we left the modern church, which is on display on you blog and here in your questions… do not bring God honor, but shame as it show a lack of regard for reconciliation and only wants to argue and be abusive, be divisive and judge and condemn… we see a much higher standard than doing those things to bring glory to God, and I personally will not lower my standards to those things if I can help it, which is why I am addressing you here on my blog and not on yours. For that is the attitude you are coming across with. I win, you lose. I’m right, you’re wrong… which is all in your wordings… so to you in all honesty it is all about winning. To me it is about growing in Christ…

4. You have said three times in a row that “this is my last response…” Glad to see that you don’t believe all that you say either.

Iggy: It only shows how welcome and loved I felt… that 3rd time … was a 3rd chance… remember Jesus and Peter?

Grace and peace,

Steve

Col. 1:9-14

Iggy: I am not sure of your definition of Grace or peace… but I am not sure I want yours… (yes that was as cutting as you comments, yet that is the why the warning against judging as you will be judge back the same way… that is the principle played out in case you miss it).

Col 1: 9. For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. 10. And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11. being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully 12. giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Yet, that would be my prayer for you also… as I do not think you realize what you are defending in defending the modern church… I would challenge you to study out what modernism really is before defending it so vehemently… you might be surprised as to what heretical things have cropped up into the church through it.

Blessings,
iggy


Technorati tags:
, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

h1

Point by point with Steve Camp

July 27, 2006

1. The Scriptures are objective truth (Psalm 19:7-11; Psalm 119:160; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).

Iggy: Yes it is Objective…. Yet it is LIVING… which means it is both subjective and objective. Because it is a very personal relationship… to make it just objective does not allow for a “relational” faith… it makes God and Jesus impersonal. Jesus pointed this out to the Pharisees in (Luke 24, John 5:39). Don’t forget that the Holy Spirit interacts with us and scripture.

2. Scripture is eternal and does not change with the times (Psalm 119:89; Heb. 4:12-16; Jude 3).

Iggy: I think most EC people would agree, yet some are liberal… some are searching…And in that it seems that the modern church would rather silence their voice and invalidate their searching because they do not see it from the modern perspective… thus the EC is here reaching out to the post modern mindset that the moderns don’t understand. I don’t see how Heb. 4:12-16 applies as it does not say anything about being eternal… Nor you Jude reference… It’s not the scripture that changes but our understanding of it… as with when Jesus came and opened the eyes of the disciples. What happened is that Scripture did change… When Jesus, being God, became flesh, the scripture now became flesh and walk amongst us. It moved from being a book of “propositional truths strung together objectively” to being the reality that is Christ Jesus. It is no long just shadows of truth but reality that is in Christ Jesus.

3. It is a more sure word than anyones vain imaginings, personal experiences, or cultural moorings (2 Peter 1:16-21).

Iggy: Again, most EC believe the scripture as their foundation and where we get our values from. The issue though is we see that vain philosophies have entered the modern church and we want to have a purer faith than that of one based on mans reasoning.

4. One question any serious student of God’ Word must ask when studying Scripture is: what does it mean in and of itself? IOW, what does it mean if I were dead? Our personal baggage, personal experiences, personal cultural contextualizations, etc. mean absolutely nothing when interpreting God’s Word (exegesis) and learning what IT is actually saying. The application can be varied–but not the interpretation.

Iggy: this is a very subjective question concerning you view of scripture being “objective”. But I get your point and I think the real issue of a serious student of God’s Word, (which the phrase never is used about scripture in the Bible, but solely about Jesus), is that “what does it mean that I am now alive in Christ?” The death issue for a Christian is dealt with already. Now, I would agree that a non believer must and should consider this question. Again, I agree with the last part and that is one of the big things we discuss and seek to understand more clearly. We see much that is taught today is tainted by, conservative political agendas, Americanization of the gospel (which is what much of the modern church is based on). We in the EC are seeking to transcend the “personal baggage, personal experiences, personal cultural contextualizations” and get to what God intended and Jesus taught.

5. The lens of postmodernism offers only an infantile approach to truth; and does not alter the meaning of Scripture for our time one iota.

Iggy: this is a major bad assumption. I have found that it holds truth to a higher standard as it is now focusing on Jesus being Truth… I do not see that as infantile, but foundational. In fact I have gone round and round with many who seem to think what Jesus said in John 5 concerning scripture and Himself is not true, yet myself and many others believe Truth is the person of Jesus… Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. It is no longer just a bunch of “propositional truths” strung together… but the very Person… It is raising the “if” in the propositional truth, true authority as Jesus Himself would be the source of all Truth and is Truth itself.

6. The EC is arminian (anthropocentric) and it is troubling.

Wow, this is so far off; most I have come in contacted with are Calvinist! Brian McLaren states he is (though greatly modified) In fact I do not see either Armenian or Calvinism as getting it. If you are a Calvinist, you are most probably not a pure one… as I bet you would never baptize an infant for salvation as Calvin taught. So, this is a very false statement. Sorry Steve. I was trying to do a church plant and as I was seeking out backing, I was recommended an organization that is very EC friendly, and was told since I am not a Calvinist they would not back me… You need more facts sir. (I am not an Armenian also as I hold to eternal security, If I personally go back and read the early Father, I stop at Irenaeus as I see that at the time of Constantine things started moving into to justifying the actions of Christians over defending the faith other than that I am strictly Bible for my teachings…).

7. Doctrine/theology in EC nomenclature is liquid, fluid, and adaptable; “resurging to meet the needs of a new generation.”

Iggy: Isn’t that what you did with your music? That is how I got saved! If it wasn’t for Larry Norman, stepping out of the rigid structure and allowing for flexibility God would not have used him to meet my needs as I was coming to faith. There must be a liquid flowing and adaptability in ones faith so that no stagnation occurs. The Body of Christ is a living organism, if we are attached to the Head, then it will grow and live and have it’s being. The same is true on a personal level. The Pharisees believed that their view was the only view… and totally missed the Messiah as He rode into Jerusalem. They missed that God’s ways are not our ways. Isn’t it our call to meet needs of our generation? To feed the poor, to love the unwanted? To tell them about Jesus in both words and action? To love them as Christ loved them?

8. The primary purpose of the local church is not about finding a new technique, understanding postmodernism so we can attract a new generation to its doors, it’s about the glory of God and His worship alone.

Iggy: Again, I think you are confusing us with the seeker/purpose driven movement. I think it is vital we have some understanding of culture… If you really believe this, then why have Jim Carey on your site… and Rush, and on and on… you are using techniques in your own way to engage culture in hope that it will lead them to Christ. I see more people living in the glory of God… and their lives have become worship… in those of the EC. The purpose of the church is to be the Body of Christ and allow Him to Live His life in and through us. It is about going to the world and preaching the Gospel… to be missional. We have turned the Body of Chirst into a lifeless institution. It is a living organism. We want people to come to church, but Jesus said come to Him.

9. No one is attacking the EC here, but evaluating it. Anonymous suggested I haven’t done my homework… Anyone who can’t reveal their true identity which is a violation of the rules of this blog doesn’t deserve an answer, but a deletion of their post. Sorry mate; when you don’t post anonymously in the future, fill out a blog profile and can engage in more than just hyperbole, then we will take you seriously. I don’t allow drive-by posting.

Iggy: though I am not sure that this is more directed at someone who had not followed the “rules” of your site, I think I agree with anonymous if this is you understanding of EC. You see, even in the very statement, you are setting yourself as the standard… your personal doctrines. In that I set Jesus as the standard and walk inHis grace and mercy allowing He that gave His Life for me, then gave His Life to me, to Live His Life through me… for as scripture teaches we are “saved by His Life”. (Romans 5)

Blessings,
iggy

p.s Steve I believe in 1997 you wrote something that renounced your former musical career:

You said:

“Early in my own musical journey I wrote songs that neither represented good music or precise theology. My motives were vitiated; my actions were not godly; and my lips were unclean. The thirst for prominence and position made my heart prideful, judgmental and callused.”

Be careful you are not still just accepting the “adda boys” of those around you… I see it very clearly in your ministry now… I used to see you with very strong anointing on your music and ministry… even if in your own heart might have not seen it “pure”. To many of us you were the next to take the mantel of Keith Green… yet, nothing happened… do not let “shame” be your base, but let the Love of Jesus and the firmness of His salvation and the trueness of His Faithfulness to us by what guides your heart.


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