Archive for the ‘Tony Jones’ Category

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Tony and Doug let loose on those who are disappointed in "Emergent Village"

June 11, 2009

Personally the this all sounds like the old “I am not getting fed” statement I hear at some churches… to that I would reply, “Are you still a baby that needs to still be fed? Have you thought that maybe it is your turn to feed someone else?” Now I agree, maybe the failure is not the “so-called” leaders, but those who are out there sitting on their butts not doing anything!

OK, the other side of the coin is this. If emerging is a movement, then it WILL pass… if it is not just a movement, then it will continue and even grow into something else… but still leaving the seeds to continue. My personal view is that emerging itself (which is different from Emergent) is the ongoing conversation that God started in Genesis with… “Let there be…” so it will not fade, it was always there in some fashion (whether called emerging or not) and will always be as long as Jesus is.

To a point I agree with Doug and Tony… yet in a way I think they are missing the boat. How? Some think that that Doug jumped ship and is off doing his radio show and thinking of politics (to some that may be boring Doug… sorry) and some think maybe that Tony has sort of gone off the reservation… (Sorry Tony, I still want to discuss some of your views with you.) Maybe that is a little harsh, but if I feel that way I imagine others do also.

Really I don’t suppose I will hear from either of these guys… (which may be part of the issue again) Do they have the right to feel as they do… of course, but all I ask is that they also try to step back and look at it from an outsider perspective… to take a look that others feelings may be a little hurt also.

Now, to me I saw Emergent Village as a great resource for ideas. I loved the podcasts and thought they gave some thought provoking insights… I think the issue is that instead of sticking with the strong points of being what they were good at they tried to become a community… sorry we already have communities going yet, to lose Emergent Village as a resource does sting a bit. The Podcast is still going yet, if Emergent Village would look to being a resource and think of ways to help the communities that are going, then they may find their strong point again.

The bummer thing is that no one wants to publish “emerging” books as they stated as they did not sell well… so… how about starting a emerging publishing company? I mean Brian Mclaren alone could probably get it going… and make it a ground roots type thing where people can get books published and sell them as part of the resource help. (Hmmm dang good idea to me!)

My greatest advice is that Tony and Doug try not to get defensive and go on the offensive… you are leaders of sorts… whether you want to be or not… and whether people want you to be or not… but if you have your finger on the pulse as some of us think you once really did… then help us make things happen.

I hope I am not coming across to cranky… I am not meaning to say I am not thankful for all Doug and Tony have done. I just pray that they can focus or refocus on helping others grow.

Tony’s response to the “Death of Emergent” voices.

Tony has a post that gives others views of what is happening to Emergent Village

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Tony and Doug let loose on those who are disappointed in "Emergent Village"

June 11, 2009

Personally the this all sounds like the old “I am not getting fed” statement I hear at some churches… to that I would reply, “Are you still a baby that needs to still be fed? Have you thought that maybe it is your turn to feed someone else?” Now I agree, maybe the failure is not the “so-called” leaders, but those who are out there sitting on their butts not doing anything!

OK, the other side of the coin is this. If emerging is a movement, then it WILL pass… if it is not just a movement, then it will continue and even grow into something else… but still leaving the seeds to continue. My personal view is that emerging itself (which is different from Emergent) is the ongoing conversation that God started in Genesis with… “Let there be…” so it will not fade, it was always there in some fashion (whether called emerging or not) and will always be as long as Jesus is.

To a point I agree with Doug and Tony… yet in a way I think they are missing the boat. How? Some think that that Doug jumped ship and is off doing his radio show and thinking of politics (to some that may be boring Doug… sorry) and some think maybe that Tony has sort of gone off the reservation… (Sorry Tony, I still want to discuss some of your views with you.) Maybe that is a little harsh, but if I feel that way I imagine others do also.

Really I don’t suppose I will hear from either of these guys… (which may be part of the issue again) Do they have the right to feel as they do… of course, but all I ask is that they also try to step back and look at it from an outsider perspective… to take a look that others feelings may be a little hurt also.

Now, to me I saw Emergent Village as a great resource for ideas. I loved the podcasts and thought they gave some thought provoking insights… I think the issue is that instead of sticking with the strong points of being what they were good at they tried to become a community… sorry we already have communities going yet, to lose Emergent Village as a resource does sting a bit. The Podcast is still going yet, if Emergent Village would look to being a resource and think of ways to help the communities that are going, then they may find their strong point again.

The bummer thing is that no one wants to publish “emerging” books as they stated as they did not sell well… so… how about starting a emerging publishing company? I mean Brian Mclaren alone could probably get it going… and make it a ground roots type thing where people can get books published and sell them as part of the resource help. (Hmmm dang good idea to me!)

My greatest advice is that Tony and Doug try not to get defensive and go on the offensive… you are leaders of sorts… whether you want to be or not… and whether people want you to be or not… but if you have your finger on the pulse as some of us think you once really did… then help us make things happen.

I hope I am not coming across to cranky… I am not meaning to say I am not thankful for all Doug and Tony have done. I just pray that they can focus or refocus on helping others grow.

Tony’s response to the “Death of Emergent” voices.

Tony has a post that gives others views of what is happening to Emergent Village

digg_url = ‘WEBSITE_URL’;

digg_title = ‘TITLE’;

digg_bodytext = ‘BODY’;

digg_media = ‘MEDIA’;

digg_topic = ‘TOPIC’;

var addthis_pub=”iggy”;

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Praying the Bible: Lectio Divina

May 20, 2009

Though lectio divina is mostly practiced in the Roman Catholic tradition I see that there is great value in using it in daily readings. I have taken the liberty to write this in less a RCC view and more for every person.

Start out first with prayer: By inviting the Holy Spirit to come and teach us, we open ourselves to God and entrust all to Him and his guiding. This is not to be confused with emptying oneself as the “paganistic religions” teach, rather taking time to empty our “self” and allow God to speak to us. Any simple prayer will do.
Come Holy Ghost, fill the hearts and minds of the faithful you servant, and inflame them with the fire of Your divine love. Instruct my heart and renew my mind by Your Truth. Enter my innermost being and renew a right spirit in me.

Lectio: The next step is relaxing. By finding a place that does not allow distraction we can better concentrate on what God has for us. Some call this “quiet time” and is much the same thing. You may go as elaborate as using candles or incense or simply find a quite spot that will not have anything that might distract you from interacting with God.

There is not set “goal” in your reading. In fact a goal may interfere with what God is trying to accomplish and teach you. This sounds a bit counter productive, yet sometimes our agendas may interfere with God’s agenda for us. Simply find a passage you may feel lead to or if you do not “feel” lead, find a passage that interests you.
As you read prayerfully ask God to show you. Keep in mind the humility of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:30-31; who humbly was wrestling with the scripture and asked Phillip to explain it to him. We now have the Holy Spirit to teach us, so simply be open to what the Spirit may be saying.
Some may want to bring commentaries and other items to use as they read. Personally I see this as not needed but I am not opposed to their use. If you come to a verse or passage that you do not understand. Spend some time prayerfully asking God to reveal it to you. Do not be discouraged if you hear nothing from God. Feel free also move on and keep reading into material you already do understand, yet ask God if there may be something you are missing or that may add to your current understanding. You might be amazed that a verse you thought you had down comes alive a this point and you see it from a totally different view. Remember “lectio” is simply reading the text and attempting to understand what the writer is saying. Do not stress out if this seems hard at first, it does become easier over time.

Meditatio: I am amazed that some see this part as dangerous. I do agree, if you do this part God may dramatically change your life! Take time to read and re-read the passage you read. Visualize it and even read it out loud and “listen” to what God may be revealing to you. Consider the verse in perspective to the Church, family, your own person or even your enemies. Take time to consider the verses in terms of allegorical or metaphorical meanings and even historical views…. Even taking it literal is often great! The idea is letting the Holy Spirit draw you in deeper to understand what the writer was trying to say and convey.

Oratio: After a while pray again that God gives you the grace to be changed by the truth of what you read. Prayerfully ask this Truth to fully come into your very being and live it out in a practical sense.
Contemplatio: Give thanks that God will do as He promises and rest in that truth.

Collatio: If you know of others who are doing this, talk to them about what God has taught you. Also there is safety in talking to others to help guide us in understanding what we learned. Someone you know my already have learned or is learning what you were taught and you can encourage each other

Actio: Live what your have learned. Allow it to be your life and truth. It is God’s word and by it allow yourself to be lead.

Addo: Though I may be wrong I believe “Addo” means “to give” and that is the last step you should do. If lectio divina is something that helps you in your reading, pass it on or give it away to others.

For more info:

Since I sort of stole the name of this post from Tony Jones I will give him some credit.

Tony Jones has a great article out on praying the bible. He just did another post that gives a bit of more history to the steps I have written about.

I also found this site as an a great resource to start to understand lectio divina.

Enjoy!

Bookmark and Share

h1

Praying the Bible: Lectio Divina

May 20, 2009

Though lectio divina is mostly practiced in the Roman Catholic tradition I see that there is great value in using it in daily readings. I have taken the liberty to write this in less a RCC view and more for every person.

Start out first with prayer: By inviting the Holy Spirit to come and teach us, we open ourselves to God and entrust all to Him and his guiding. This is not to be confused with emptying oneself as the “paganistic religions” teach, rather taking time to empty our “self” and allow God to speak to us. Any simple prayer will do.
Come Holy Ghost, fill the hearts and minds of the faithful you servant, and inflame them with the fire of Your divine love. Instruct my heart and renew my mind by Your Truth. Enter my innermost being and renew a right spirit in me.

Lectio: The next step is relaxing. By finding a place that does not allow distraction we can better concentrate on what God has for us. Some call this “quiet time” and is much the same thing. You may go as elaborate as using candles or incense or simply find a quite spot that will not have anything that might distract you from interacting with God.

There is not set “goal” in your reading. In fact a goal may interfere with what God is trying to accomplish and teach you. This sounds a bit counter productive, yet sometimes our agendas may interfere with God’s agenda for us. Simply find a passage you may feel lead to or if you do not “feel” lead, find a passage that interests you.
As you read prayerfully ask God to show you. Keep in mind the humility of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:30-31; who humbly was wrestling with the scripture and asked Phillip to explain it to him. We now have the Holy Spirit to teach us, so simply be open to what the Spirit may be saying.
Some may want to bring commentaries and other items to use as they read. Personally I see this as not needed but I am not opposed to their use. If you come to a verse or passage that you do not understand. Spend some time prayerfully asking God to reveal it to you. Do not be discouraged if you hear nothing from God. Feel free also move on and keep reading into material you already do understand, yet ask God if there may be something you are missing or that may add to your current understanding. You might be amazed that a verse you thought you had down comes alive a this point and you see it from a totally different view. Remember “lectio” is simply reading the text and attempting to understand what the writer is saying. Do not stress out if this seems hard at first, it does become easier over time.

Meditatio: I am amazed that some see this part as dangerous. I do agree, if you do this part God may dramatically change your life! Take time to read and re-read the passage you read. Visualize it and even read it out loud and “listen” to what God may be revealing to you. Consider the verse in perspective to the Church, family, your own person or even your enemies. Take time to consider the verses in terms of allegorical or metaphorical meanings and even historical views…. Even taking it literal is often great! The idea is letting the Holy Spirit draw you in deeper to understand what the writer was trying to say and convey.

Oratio: After a while pray again that God gives you the grace to be changed by the truth of what you read. Prayerfully ask this Truth to fully come into your very being and live it out in a practical sense.
Contemplatio: Give thanks that God will do as He promises and rest in that truth.

Collatio: If you know of others who are doing this, talk to them about what God has taught you. Also there is safety in talking to others to help guide us in understanding what we learned. Someone you know my already have learned or is learning what you were taught and you can encourage each other

Actio: Live what your have learned. Allow it to be your life and truth. It is God’s word and by it allow yourself to be lead.

Addo: Though I may be wrong I believe “Addo” means “to give” and that is the last step you should do. If lectio divina is something that helps you in your reading, pass it on or give it away to others.

For more info:

Since I sort of stole the name of this post from Tony Jones I will give him some credit.

Tony Jones has a great article out on praying the bible. He just did another post that gives a bit of more history to the steps I have written about.

I also found this site as an a great resource to start to understand lectio divina.

Enjoy!

Bookmark and Share

h1

I should be offended but it is so funny! LOL!

November 26, 2008

Andrew Jones (the long lost brother of Tony Jones) posted this hillarious video from the “enemy” as he put it… It is actually well done.

h1

I should be offended but it is so funny! LOL!

November 26, 2008

Andrew Jones (the long lost brother of Tony Jones) posted this hillarious video from the “enemy” as he put it… It is actually well done.

h1

“The Last Dying Gasp…”: Updated

November 22, 2008

This has been an interesting discussion that has gone to a few different places around the internet. I wanted to point out some of them.

Jordon Cooper: I interact with Bob Hyatt over the topic more.
Bob Hyatt: His Facebook comments where Tony Jones has chimed in.
You may not be able to access that link unless you are friends with Bob or Tony.

“The Last Dying Gasp…”

I recently had the privilege to have an (all be it brief) conversation with Bob Hyatt via Facebook.com. He stated in his update a very intriguing statement.

“I think I heard the final gasp of the emerging church’s ability to speak prophetically to the Church today. Shame.” (1)

This was in response to a recent statement made by Tony Jones concerning about monogamous homosexual couples:

“…I now believe that GLBTQ can live lives in accord with biblical Christianity (at least as much as any of us can!) and that their monogamy can and should be sanctioned and blessed by church and state” (2)

Now to be fair to Tony Jones, I believe he is really trying to work through this issue. I see he has a mixture of personal reasons as well as he is trying to work out theological reasons for his statement. In all I see the dialogue around Tony Jones on this is very refreshing though I do not hold his view point. Also, to be upfront, I am not addressing Tony’s statement at this time as I am holding back my thoughts until Tony can work through this more. I do have a great respect for Tony and believe over all he has some very insightful things to say in the emerging conversation.

Now, Bob Hyatt’s statement intrigued as well as bothered me. Not that I dislike Bob, rather I truly have great respect for him also. We have some theological differences yet over all I see that these are minor as opposed to some that hold his systematic viewpoint. Bob is a very open person to lively diologue and I have enjoyed his thoughts over the brief years I have known him.

The part that intrigued me was that Bob seemed to be saying that part of the history of the emerging church was that it came out of the conservitive evangelical church. I agree that in a fashion this is true. If one reads many of the writers like Tony Jones, Doug Paggit, Dan Kimball and Mark Driscoll they will state it all started with them as they were young pastors involved in Youth Specialties. I do not deny that this is true, rather I see it as short sited in the over all history of the emerging church.

Dan Kimball points out that the term is not new with his friends or him. In a post The Emerging Church circa 1970 Dan points out a book written by Bruce Larson and Ralph Osborne who address the church in the changing times Dan quotes the book:

“When historians of the future look back at the 1970’s, they will doubtless see this is an era of chaotic change in the Church, a day of new beginnings, a strange mixture of despair and hope, frustration and boldness. disillusionment and expectancy.”

Dan points out that this is very true… he states:

“Over 35 years have past since this was written, and how true those same words can be said of today’s church. Chaotic change, new beginnings, frustrations and boldness, disillusionment and expectancy, despair and hope. Culture has changed since then, and quite a significant change in the church has emerged since then.”

Yet, what bothers me about Bob’s assertion is that even though, as Dan Kimball points out, the term has been around much longer than Tony Jones or himself, is to me the actual “conversation” has been around before creation. I see that the conversation started with God Himself in Genesis 1:3 as God spoke “Let there be…” and it was. I see that this is the “Logos” of John 1 for the word “logos” means more than just “Word” as it is translated, rather it means a continuous thought in the form of a conversation.

Interestingly a Greek philosopher named Heraclitus who resided in Ephesus taught that logos was “the Word (Logos) as an ordering principle of the world” . (3) To connect the dots for you, John was referring to the same Logos that Heraclitus taught about yet instead of the impersonal “Logos” which was a “principal” John connected this “Logos” with Jesus. John wrote from Ephesus which was the very place Heraclitus was held in high regards.

So we must see that the idea, of this principal or logical order which Heraclitus used the word “Logos” held in its definition much more than “word” as we try to use it today. Further understanding of “logos” is that it is not only this eternal principal that holds all things together, it was also in thought a conversation. (4)

Again, all that is to say I see the emerging conversation is eternal and the very conversation God started in Genesis.

I see that to make the statement as Bob Hyatt stated, “I think I heard the final gasp of the emerging church’s ability to speak prophetically to the Church today. Shame.” (1) as missing the big picture.

Now as far as Bob’s thoughts on whether the emerging church was historical conservative, I see his point, yet, I have been a part of the conversation for about 5 years and have seen that there are quite a few that are from the liberal side. So, as far as I am concerned Tony was and is a liberal and nothing has really changed in my mind about him. To be a liberal does not disqualify one’s voice from the conversation. In fact that is the beauty to me of the conversation is that all have a voice and labels do not matter that much.

As far as the other thing that bothered me. Bob spoke of the prophetic voice that now is “gasping”. This bothers me as I see the prophetic as God’s voice and not our own. Tony’s statement may or may not disqualify him as prophetic as it will yet to be seen. Yet, I see that to open the doors of the church to the GLBTQ communities is not a bad thing but a good thing as the Spirit can work in their lives as He does in my own. We must never underestimate the Power of God as He works through His Spirit Who was given to lead us in all Truth.

Again, I see Bob may be just shooting out a momentary reflexive thought. I hope he will unpack his thoughts on this. I see that all this disagreement as a really great thing. I see that it opens the door to healing the divisiveness that has harmed the GLBTQ communities. I pray that this be so. We must remember the emerging conversation is not “just” about us, but about the Kingdom of God. We must not lose sight that we are privileged to be part of the Greater Things of God. As I told Bob in our conversation, “Emerging to me is not a movement or organization. It is growth. Tony is on a journey and came to conclusion that I even disagree with. Yet, again, this is by far not the final gasp… I see it as taking on a new form in a sense… expanding outward as does the Kingdom of God”

References:

1. http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?id=504050157&ref=ts
2. http://blog.beliefnet.com/tonyjones/2008/11/same-sex-marriage-blogalogue-h.html
3. http://www.iep.utm.edu/h/heraclit.htm
4. http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/heracli.htm