Logic lessons with Ken Silva… (?????)

At a blog where a person likes to take one sentance and create straw men to attakc people, I had an interesting lesson in logic from Ken Silva…

It starts with a guy called, (sorry if this is offensive, it was his choice of names not mine.) Poop is Emergent.

Poop is Emergent Too said…
Chris L: Driscoll was Catholic by backround…And Pagitt was once a pastor in the Baptist General Conference which is not liberal by most standards…

Also lack of certain trust in Jesus and his word and revelation is not humility, it is foolishness, masqurading as humility.

By your definition it would seem that Jesus was nothing more than an arrogant fool when he claimed “Unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
February 12, 2008 1:18 PM

iggy said…
Poop,”Also lack of certain trust in Jesus and his word and revelation is not humility, it is foolishness, masqurading as humility.”

Yes, we all remember the words of the man asking Jesus to heal his son in Mark 9:23-24 as foolishness…

“”`If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for him who believes.” Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!””

Yes, such a masquerade that man put on…

iggy February 12, 2008 1:26 PM

Ken Silva said…
iggy mocks: “we all remember the words of the man asking Jesus to heal his son in Mark 9:23-24 as foolishness…

“This is the fallacy of the false analogy. P was talking about Doug Pagitt, who is functioning as a Christian pastor (apples).

The man referred to in Mark 9 is still unregenerate and certainly is not expected to be a teacher of God’s Word (oranges).

Therefore they cannot be compated in the context of P’s comment.
February 12, 2008 1:53 PM

iggy said…
Ken,

So by your infallible logic,

Doug is saved…

He is of the Elect and no one can snatch him out of Jesus’ hands… not even you.

thanks! = )

iggy
February 12, 2008 1:57 PM

Ken Silva said…
iggy,1) It isn’t my logic.

And 2) I didn’t say anything at all about Doug being saved. What I said was he “is functioning as a Christian pastor”.

February 12, 2008 2:10 PM

iggy said…
Ken,

Then by your “not your logic” a “Christian” pastor is not “Christian”?

Interesting… so Doug is not saved and is a “Christian” pastor…

I am enjoying this “logic” lesson… or your “not your logic” lesson.

Please enlighten us more. = )

iggy February 12, 2008 2:16 PM

Ken Silva said…

iggy,

I believe you’re sharper than this: “a ‘Christian’ pastor is not ‘Christian’?” One can claim to be a Christian, but that doesn’t make it so. I certainly wouldn’t have called Pagitt as pastor and I don’t personally think he is a Christian.

However, it is an incontrovertable fact that Doug Pagitt “is functioning as a Christian pastor.”
February 12, 2008 2:32 PM

iggy said…
Ken,

“I certainly wouldn’t have called Pagitt as pastor and I don’t personally think he is a Christian.

However, it is an incontrovertable fact that Doug Pagitt “is functioning as a Christian pastor.””

So, let’s look at your “not my logic” here:

1. You state that Doug is “functioning as a Christian pastor”

2. Yet not all that are “Christian” are Christian becuase YOU personally think Doug is not.

3. But yet the only “incontrovertable” fact you are asserting is that Doug is functioning as a Christian pastor…

So we conclude that if YOU personally do not think one is a Christian, they still can function as a “Christian” pastor though not be a Christian… though you refer to them as a Christian.

So one is a Christian only if you say they are.

I see… so it all depends on YOU and what YOU think…

Got it.

iggy
February 12, 2008 2:48 PM

Ken Silva said…
iggy,

I’m afraid you and I aren’t going to get anywhere here so it’s best we drop it. In my opinion, to paraphrase a famous saying: “Your reasoning has left the building.”
February 12, 2008 3:20 PM

iggy said…
Ken,

I agree, your logical orbit is a bit too small for me.
See ya,

igs
February 12, 2008 3:22 PM

Logic lessons with Ken Silva… (?????)

At a blog where a person likes to take one sentance and create straw men to attakc people, I had an interesting lesson in logic from Ken Silva…

It starts with a guy called, (sorry if this is offensive, it was his choice of names not mine.) Poop is Emergent.

Poop is Emergent Too said…
Chris L: Driscoll was Catholic by backround…And Pagitt was once a pastor in the Baptist General Conference which is not liberal by most standards…

Also lack of certain trust in Jesus and his word and revelation is not humility, it is foolishness, masqurading as humility.

By your definition it would seem that Jesus was nothing more than an arrogant fool when he claimed “Unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
February 12, 2008 1:18 PM

iggy said…
Poop,”Also lack of certain trust in Jesus and his word and revelation is not humility, it is foolishness, masqurading as humility.”

Yes, we all remember the words of the man asking Jesus to heal his son in Mark 9:23-24 as foolishness…

“”`If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for him who believes.” Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!””

Yes, such a masquerade that man put on…

iggy February 12, 2008 1:26 PM

Ken Silva said…
iggy mocks: “we all remember the words of the man asking Jesus to heal his son in Mark 9:23-24 as foolishness…

“This is the fallacy of the false analogy. P was talking about Doug Pagitt, who is functioning as a Christian pastor (apples).

The man referred to in Mark 9 is still unregenerate and certainly is not expected to be a teacher of God’s Word (oranges).

Therefore they cannot be compated in the context of P’s comment.
February 12, 2008 1:53 PM

iggy said…
Ken,

So by your infallible logic,

Doug is saved…

He is of the Elect and no one can snatch him out of Jesus’ hands… not even you.

thanks! = )

iggy
February 12, 2008 1:57 PM

Ken Silva said…
iggy,1) It isn’t my logic.

And 2) I didn’t say anything at all about Doug being saved. What I said was he “is functioning as a Christian pastor”.

February 12, 2008 2:10 PM

iggy said…
Ken,

Then by your “not your logic” a “Christian” pastor is not “Christian”?

Interesting… so Doug is not saved and is a “Christian” pastor…

I am enjoying this “logic” lesson… or your “not your logic” lesson.

Please enlighten us more. = )

iggy February 12, 2008 2:16 PM

Ken Silva said…

iggy,

I believe you’re sharper than this: “a ‘Christian’ pastor is not ‘Christian’?” One can claim to be a Christian, but that doesn’t make it so. I certainly wouldn’t have called Pagitt as pastor and I don’t personally think he is a Christian.

However, it is an incontrovertable fact that Doug Pagitt “is functioning as a Christian pastor.”
February 12, 2008 2:32 PM

iggy said…
Ken,

“I certainly wouldn’t have called Pagitt as pastor and I don’t personally think he is a Christian.

However, it is an incontrovertable fact that Doug Pagitt “is functioning as a Christian pastor.””

So, let’s look at your “not my logic” here:

1. You state that Doug is “functioning as a Christian pastor”

2. Yet not all that are “Christian” are Christian becuase YOU personally think Doug is not.

3. But yet the only “incontrovertable” fact you are asserting is that Doug is functioning as a Christian pastor…

So we conclude that if YOU personally do not think one is a Christian, they still can function as a “Christian” pastor though not be a Christian… though you refer to them as a Christian.

So one is a Christian only if you say they are.

I see… so it all depends on YOU and what YOU think…

Got it.

iggy
February 12, 2008 2:48 PM

Ken Silva said…
iggy,

I’m afraid you and I aren’t going to get anywhere here so it’s best we drop it. In my opinion, to paraphrase a famous saying: “Your reasoning has left the building.”
February 12, 2008 3:20 PM

iggy said…
Ken,

I agree, your logical orbit is a bit too small for me.
See ya,

igs
February 12, 2008 3:22 PM

Is Doug Pagitt a Universalist? Truth war update!

Is Doug Pagitt a Universalist?

I was poking around and keep running into people who claim Doug is a Universalist…

Here is one example;

“Doug Pagitt is apparently one of the spokespeople for the emergent movement. His well reasoned response to the charge of universalism can be found here. Too much. Just too much. To give you a feel for the discussion, you can hear his views as they were broadcast here and here. Pagitt disagrees with the dualistic-Platonic understanding of the cosmos and denies heaven as a real place.”

–>Interestingly as I read this I went to Doug’s supposed admission (Ironically linked above) or whatever and found rather slanderous accusations by John MacArthur against Doug.

Now this all starts in an interview at Crosswalk.com

“Edwards: [When “Emergents” and many seeker-sensitive church advocates say “We do church a certain way,”] it seems to me that they do it by totally ignoring the book of Acts and the Epistles.”

“John MacArthur: Let me just cut to the chase on this one: [Doug] Pagitt is a Universalist. What he was saying is real simple. He was saying when you die your spirit goes to God and judgment means that whatever was not right about you, whatever was bad about you, whatever was substantially lacking about you, gets all resolved. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a Buddhist, a Hindu or a Muslim—doesn’t matter whether you’re a Christian really; we’re all going to end up in this wonderful, warm and fuzzy relationship with God. That’s just classic universalism.
I think you know it’s most helpful, Paul, to go back and kind of recast how we view these people. He’s not a pastor; he’s not a Christian; that’s not a church. When you call yourself a Christian and you call yourself a pastor and you say you have a church, all of that has to be—to be legitimate—defined biblically. And if it’s not, that’s not a church and you’re not a pastor and you’re not even a Christian. What you have here is a form of false religion”

BTW Doug was “classic” in his interjections…

Yet, as one reads further, we find something interesting that Doug states…

“A couple of thoughts.

For those who want me to respond to allegations of being a universalist and a false teacher I will say I am not.But for most that will not suffice. I have written a number of books on this topic and have one coming in May called A Christianity Worth Believing. But I am also sure that all this will not remove such concerns.

And more importantly, thank you all for the kind words but do know that I am not at all hurt by such comments nor do I feel attacked. I feel sorry that people would talk about each other like I was talked about in the interview, but that is more on principle than personal hurtfulness.
So, please feel free to send all your good wishes and concerns but know also that what we read each week as a community of Solomon’s Porch from Jude is true –

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!

Amen.
Posted by: Doug Pagitt December 12, 2007 at 08:59 AM “

So, I wonder which side of the ”Truth” those are, who must defend their truth and their god who cannot defend himself?

Jeremiah 50:34

“Yet their Redeemer is strong; the LORD Almighty is his name. He will vigorously defend their cause so that he may bring rest to their land, but unrest to those who live in Babylon.”

Isaiah 51:22

“This is what your Sovereign LORD says, your God, who defends his people: “See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath, you will never drink again.”

Yep, I will stand back and let God defend me… I think that I will believe the bible over anyone who uses slander and lies to defend their god in some false “truth” war.

iggy

Is Doug Pagitt a Universalist? Truth war update!

Is Doug Pagitt a Universalist?

I was poking around and keep running into people who claim Doug is a Universalist…

Here is one example;

“Doug Pagitt is apparently one of the spokespeople for the emergent movement. His well reasoned response to the charge of universalism can be found here. Too much. Just too much. To give you a feel for the discussion, you can hear his views as they were broadcast here and here. Pagitt disagrees with the dualistic-Platonic understanding of the cosmos and denies heaven as a real place.”

–>Interestingly as I read this I went to Doug’s supposed admission (Ironically linked above) or whatever and found rather slanderous accusations by John MacArthur against Doug.

Now this all starts in an interview at Crosswalk.com

“Edwards: [When “Emergents” and many seeker-sensitive church advocates say “We do church a certain way,”] it seems to me that they do it by totally ignoring the book of Acts and the Epistles.”

“John MacArthur: Let me just cut to the chase on this one: [Doug] Pagitt is a Universalist. What he was saying is real simple. He was saying when you die your spirit goes to God and judgment means that whatever was not right about you, whatever was bad about you, whatever was substantially lacking about you, gets all resolved. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a Buddhist, a Hindu or a Muslim—doesn’t matter whether you’re a Christian really; we’re all going to end up in this wonderful, warm and fuzzy relationship with God. That’s just classic universalism.
I think you know it’s most helpful, Paul, to go back and kind of recast how we view these people. He’s not a pastor; he’s not a Christian; that’s not a church. When you call yourself a Christian and you call yourself a pastor and you say you have a church, all of that has to be—to be legitimate—defined biblically. And if it’s not, that’s not a church and you’re not a pastor and you’re not even a Christian. What you have here is a form of false religion”

BTW Doug was “classic” in his interjections…

Yet, as one reads further, we find something interesting that Doug states…

“A couple of thoughts.

For those who want me to respond to allegations of being a universalist and a false teacher I will say I am not.But for most that will not suffice. I have written a number of books on this topic and have one coming in May called A Christianity Worth Believing. But I am also sure that all this will not remove such concerns.

And more importantly, thank you all for the kind words but do know that I am not at all hurt by such comments nor do I feel attacked. I feel sorry that people would talk about each other like I was talked about in the interview, but that is more on principle than personal hurtfulness.
So, please feel free to send all your good wishes and concerns but know also that what we read each week as a community of Solomon’s Porch from Jude is true –

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!

Amen.
Posted by: Doug Pagitt December 12, 2007 at 08:59 AM “

So, I wonder which side of the ”Truth” those are, who must defend their truth and their god who cannot defend himself?

Jeremiah 50:34

“Yet their Redeemer is strong; the LORD Almighty is his name. He will vigorously defend their cause so that he may bring rest to their land, but unrest to those who live in Babylon.”

Isaiah 51:22

“This is what your Sovereign LORD says, your God, who defends his people: “See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath, you will never drink again.”

Yep, I will stand back and let God defend me… I think that I will believe the bible over anyone who uses slander and lies to defend their god in some false “truth” war.

iggy

Christoplatonism’s False Assumptions (against exaggerated matter-spirit dualism)

Here is a very interesting write up on how Platonist Dualism entered and has infused itself on to the Christian faith.

Here is an excerpt from the article.

“Platonic ideas began making inroads into Christian theology through the writings of Philo (ca. 20 BC–AD 50). An Alexandrian Jew, Philo admired Greek culture and was enamored with Plato’s philosophy. He was also proud of his Jewish heritage. In his desire to offer the Greeks the best of Judaism and the Jews the best of Greek philosophy, he allegorized Scripture. He did so in contrast to the literal interpretation of many rabbis.351

Philo’s ideas caught on. Alexandria became the home of a new school of theological thought. Clement of Alexandria (150–215), an early church father, was a part of this movement, as was Origen (185–254), an Egyptian-born Christian writer and teacher. Clement embraced Greek philosophy and maintained that Scripture must be understood allegorically. Origen developed an entire system of allegorizing Scripture. His method was to see the Bible as a three-part living organism, corresponding to body, soul, and spirit. The body was the literal or historical sense, the soul was the psychic or moral sense, and the spirit was—by far most important—the philosophical sense.”

The whole article is here.

Be blessed,
iggy

Christoplatonism’s False Assumptions (against exaggerated matter-spirit dualism)

Here is a very interesting write up on how Platonist Dualism entered and has infused itself on to the Christian faith.

Here is an excerpt from the article.

“Platonic ideas began making inroads into Christian theology through the writings of Philo (ca. 20 BC–AD 50). An Alexandrian Jew, Philo admired Greek culture and was enamored with Plato’s philosophy. He was also proud of his Jewish heritage. In his desire to offer the Greeks the best of Judaism and the Jews the best of Greek philosophy, he allegorized Scripture. He did so in contrast to the literal interpretation of many rabbis.351

Philo’s ideas caught on. Alexandria became the home of a new school of theological thought. Clement of Alexandria (150–215), an early church father, was a part of this movement, as was Origen (185–254), an Egyptian-born Christian writer and teacher. Clement embraced Greek philosophy and maintained that Scripture must be understood allegorically. Origen developed an entire system of allegorizing Scripture. His method was to see the Bible as a three-part living organism, corresponding to body, soul, and spirit. The body was the literal or historical sense, the soul was the psychic or moral sense, and the spirit was—by far most important—the philosophical sense.”

The whole article is here.

Be blessed,
iggy

Doug Padgitt and a stolen bit from my other blog site.

First off those at mychurch.com will notice that this was a comment in the last post. But since this blog is originally at Blogger.com, not everyone has read those comments.

I finally listened to Doug Padgitt on Way of the Master Radio… and first off… Todd Friel is truly a rude individual. Doug did a great job. What I noticed is that this will of course be touted as Doug is a heretic and a win for their side… but I see that Doug pointed out the issues that are in the so called “systematic theology” that Todd was pushing on that site. I do wish Doug expounded a bit on the difference of Todd’s version of “systematic theology” and true “systematic theology” as Todd just pieced about four out of context quotes of Jesus and ran them together in a sick display of proof-texting that only showed that Todd was proving his own preconceived doctrine.

Now, I do also wish Doug (who I admit sounded a bit arrogant, yet truly under the conditions was way beyond being gracious to Todd’s rudeness) also unpacked a bit more on the idea of the narrative story that he believes… I do get that “Heaven is not a place” in the sense that Doug pointed out to Todd, yet confess it is a bit hard to wrap one’s mind around if all you know is the view that Todd has been taught and which as Tony Jones pointed out about 90% of Christianity believes… so I do see Doug could have slowed down and walked Todd through this a bit.

Yet, that being my only real critique that thing that is being touted is that Doug stated that a Muslim or Buddhist will enter the New Creation… in other words that he stated that someone can be saved without Jesus. To be truthful, after listening to it twice I did not hear Doug say that. I heard that all men will be judged the same. I also heard that we are to lead people to Christ Jesus. I do wish Doug connected the thoughts.

Now we are dealing with people who have an escapist mentality and theology… they believe in the “Left Behind” theology that truly even distorts the traditional “Rapture” theology. These people do not see that judgment is a good thing that will set things right… and Doug alluded to a bit stating that anything that is not of God will be purged… (Sorry I can’t remember the exact phrase he used).

The flip side is that if one is on the other side of this judgment then you will be purged also.

Interestingly, Todd used the word “destroyed” when talking about people being judged… I see that if Todd believes that in his own “systematic theology” then he is a heretic as a person cannot be “destroyed” and be “tormented forever” for a destroyed person does not exist!

Which leads me to these thoughts which were a bit in the same vein as the conversation lead my at mychurch.com site.

I find it interesting that much that is taught in Romans 9 is that some are created for wrath and some are created for mercy… and then most Calvinists stop at verse 18 or 24… yet in the next few verses, Paul does the punchline and states that those very vessels of wrath did not seek God and found Him, while the vessels of mercy had God and now were to be judged by God.

What that means is that many are being deceived that they are vessels of mercy by definition of Calvin when in fact it is about Jew and Gentile being made into one man and the Jew thinking he is saved by being a descendant of Abraham by blood and have turned faith into works, are now vessels of wrath, while the Gentiles which were considered the vessels of wrath, are not vessels of mercy! And this all by Grace!

Again, it is in this subtle misunderstanding that I see things go askew with Calvinism.Now, as I stated, I see Arninianism having some quirks also… and many lean on works to maintain salvation which negates Galatians chapter 3 or really the whole book of Galatians as well the bulk of Paul’s writings.

Still I see both as branches of Christianity, and in a sense both polluted by Gnostic/Platonic dualism which makes the whole a little warped as it over emphasizes the existing heaven and hell as eternal destinations and goal of our faith over salvation and eternal life in the New Heaven and New Earth… I just see that many are trapped in a faulty theology that denies that Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire and in one breath state men will burn forever and the other that they will be destroyed… it can’t be both… but that is what is taught…

The New Creation, that we are now a part of as of the Resurrection and are called by Paul as believers… is the continuation and regeneration of all Creation being restored to and maybe beyond its original glory… I see that like we are resurrected and clothed in the imperishable it will still be us, that this will still be the earth and heaven only also clothed or purged of all evil and sin and what a glory that will be to behold.

be blessed,
iggy

Doug Padgitt and a stolen bit from my other blog site.

First off those at mychurch.com will notice that this was a comment in the last post. But since this blog is originally at Blogger.com, not everyone has read those comments.

I finally listened to Doug Padgitt on Way of the Master Radio… and first off… Todd Friel is truly a rude individual. Doug did a great job. What I noticed is that this will of course be touted as Doug is a heretic and a win for their side… but I see that Doug pointed out the issues that are in the so called “systematic theology” that Todd was pushing on that site. I do wish Doug expounded a bit on the difference of Todd’s version of “systematic theology” and true “systematic theology” as Todd just pieced about four out of context quotes of Jesus and ran them together in a sick display of proof-texting that only showed that Todd was proving his own preconceived doctrine.

Now, I do also wish Doug (who I admit sounded a bit arrogant, yet truly under the conditions was way beyond being gracious to Todd’s rudeness) also unpacked a bit more on the idea of the narrative story that he believes… I do get that “Heaven is not a place” in the sense that Doug pointed out to Todd, yet confess it is a bit hard to wrap one’s mind around if all you know is the view that Todd has been taught and which as Tony Jones pointed out about 90% of Christianity believes… so I do see Doug could have slowed down and walked Todd through this a bit.

Yet, that being my only real critique that thing that is being touted is that Doug stated that a Muslim or Buddhist will enter the New Creation… in other words that he stated that someone can be saved without Jesus. To be truthful, after listening to it twice I did not hear Doug say that. I heard that all men will be judged the same. I also heard that we are to lead people to Christ Jesus. I do wish Doug connected the thoughts.

Now we are dealing with people who have an escapist mentality and theology… they believe in the “Left Behind” theology that truly even distorts the traditional “Rapture” theology. These people do not see that judgment is a good thing that will set things right… and Doug alluded to a bit stating that anything that is not of God will be purged… (Sorry I can’t remember the exact phrase he used).

The flip side is that if one is on the other side of this judgment then you will be purged also.

Interestingly, Todd used the word “destroyed” when talking about people being judged… I see that if Todd believes that in his own “systematic theology” then he is a heretic as a person cannot be “destroyed” and be “tormented forever” for a destroyed person does not exist!

Which leads me to these thoughts which were a bit in the same vein as the conversation lead my at mychurch.com site.

I find it interesting that much that is taught in Romans 9 is that some are created for wrath and some are created for mercy… and then most Calvinists stop at verse 18 or 24… yet in the next few verses, Paul does the punchline and states that those very vessels of wrath did not seek God and found Him, while the vessels of mercy had God and now were to be judged by God.

What that means is that many are being deceived that they are vessels of mercy by definition of Calvin when in fact it is about Jew and Gentile being made into one man and the Jew thinking he is saved by being a descendant of Abraham by blood and have turned faith into works, are now vessels of wrath, while the Gentiles which were considered the vessels of wrath, are not vessels of mercy! And this all by Grace!

Again, it is in this subtle misunderstanding that I see things go askew with Calvinism.Now, as I stated, I see Arninianism having some quirks also… and many lean on works to maintain salvation which negates Galatians chapter 3 or really the whole book of Galatians as well the bulk of Paul’s writings.

Still I see both as branches of Christianity, and in a sense both polluted by Gnostic/Platonic dualism which makes the whole a little warped as it over emphasizes the existing heaven and hell as eternal destinations and goal of our faith over salvation and eternal life in the New Heaven and New Earth… I just see that many are trapped in a faulty theology that denies that Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire and in one breath state men will burn forever and the other that they will be destroyed… it can’t be both… but that is what is taught…

The New Creation, that we are now a part of as of the Resurrection and are called by Paul as believers… is the continuation and regeneration of all Creation being restored to and maybe beyond its original glory… I see that like we are resurrected and clothed in the imperishable it will still be us, that this will still be the earth and heaven only also clothed or purged of all evil and sin and what a glory that will be to behold.

be blessed,
iggy