Repost- What I have learned from my critics

What I have learned from my critics.

Disclaimer: First off if you disagree with me, that is fine and to disagree and talk and discuss in a way that is respectful and thoughtful is a great and wonderful thing. In this we can grow with each other. This post is in no way about you. So please take this in the context of those who attack and judge… not seek to gain understanding. In this I see that it is out of love that many of you have approached me… and even ending our disagreements with kind words. It is not a sin to disagree, especially on minor things. Personally I have learned to hold tightly to the essentials, and loosely to the non essentials. In that I mean give grace in areas that though may be important, do not keep one from gaining salvation that comes from Jesus alone.


So what have I learned from my critics?

Truth: Romans 13: 9. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11. And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

What I have learned: I learned that it is a good thing to harm your neighbor… especially if it concerns one that they have to be right in their view at the detriment of another. I have learned from you that Love your neighbor does not apply if it interferes with your doctrines. I see that it is better to fulfill the Law, than to Love.

Truth: 1 Corinthians 13

1. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10. but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I have learned: If one is right and the other is wrong I can go off the handle at any moment and show no to little self control in my actions. I can call names and make fun or ruin someone’s reputation as long as I am right on my view of doctrine. If I see someone who seems to have strong views and may even envy them, it is better to mock them and tear them down because they could lead others astray and to trust God with judgment would be unheard of.

I have learned that politeness is not a ‘christian’ virtue, nor kindness, for anger as long as it is ‘righteous anger’ can justify most any action… and self justification is one of the main unwritten doctrines I have found you follow. I learned it is best to keep a long list of wrongs so I can pull them out and read them to mock or use them even if I have to twist someone’s words to make them look bad. I have learned to use evil to protect the truth.

I have learned to not trust that God is working outside of my own actions… so to trust in God is of no value… I must either judge and condemn now, as I am ‘truthing in love’ and save this person from their error. And to even consider what they may know would be an act of humility, which has no place in your unwritten doctrinal statement.

I have learned that love will not persevere if it interferes with your personal doctrine and to give up hope on someone if having any is of no value. I have learned that if love fails… hate prevails. For hate is a ‘christian’ value and a virtue.

Truth: 1 John 3: 13. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you.
14. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 16. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18. Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.


1 John 4: 19. We love because he first loved us. 20. If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.


I have learned: I have learned that it is not only good but right to hate your brother if he thinks or speaks in any way contrary to my own personal view of doctrine. It is better to sacrifice the brother to be right than to give into self sacrifice. It is better to take away from someone else be it material or spiritual possessions and have no pity on him. It is better to speak the words of love like a seducer, than to love in action… It is better to hate one’s brother in the name of your doctrine, than to love him if I disagree. Jesus and the Bible are only for you to use to abuse others to get your way, and to prove how much you love your doctrines.


I want to thank you for setting me on the path or self righteousness. I now see that Gandhi was very wrong when he said;


“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”–-Mahatma Gandhi

I wonder where Gandhi ever picked up on this view? Maybe because he was not a Christian as I have begun to learn to be, from my critics.

Blessings?
iggy

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Piper versus Wright: Debating imputed righteousness

Versus

It seems that N.T Wright and John Piper are in a heavy debate over “righteousness”. Andrew Perriman has an interesting post over at open source theology where he explores both views. Personally both view to me have merit. I do think that the idea of “court of justice” type righteousness may be a bit misunderstood due to contextualization with the “American” view of what courts and Justice might be. I see more merit in the “ledger” view as it just makes more sense in the context over all. (At least to me).

Yet, either way, in a sense we do end up with “imputation” of Christ’s righteousness to us as by the Cross all things are being set right… so God’s righteousness is imputed and imparted to all creation and to us as we believe on Jesus.

Maybe I see things a bit differently from both… I am more Reformed than I care to admit, yet at the same time I am not Reformed as I see that there are many restrictions in the same sense the Roman Catholic dogmas inhibit understanding of Scripture. Sometimes trying to prove a doctrinal statement clouds what Scripture actually teaches and states.

So I pass it on to you who read this blog, and ask, what is your take? Not just what side of this argument you fall on, but rather, what do you see the Bible teaching?

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Tony and Doug let loose on those who are disappointed in "Emergent Village"

Personally the this all sounds like the old “I am not getting fed” statement I hear at some churches… to that I would reply, “Are you still a baby that needs to still be fed? Have you thought that maybe it is your turn to feed someone else?” Now I agree, maybe the failure is not the “so-called” leaders, but those who are out there sitting on their butts not doing anything!

OK, the other side of the coin is this. If emerging is a movement, then it WILL pass… if it is not just a movement, then it will continue and even grow into something else… but still leaving the seeds to continue. My personal view is that emerging itself (which is different from Emergent) is the ongoing conversation that God started in Genesis with… “Let there be…” so it will not fade, it was always there in some fashion (whether called emerging or not) and will always be as long as Jesus is.

To a point I agree with Doug and Tony… yet in a way I think they are missing the boat. How? Some think that that Doug jumped ship and is off doing his radio show and thinking of politics (to some that may be boring Doug… sorry) and some think maybe that Tony has sort of gone off the reservation… (Sorry Tony, I still want to discuss some of your views with you.) Maybe that is a little harsh, but if I feel that way I imagine others do also.

Really I don’t suppose I will hear from either of these guys… (which may be part of the issue again) Do they have the right to feel as they do… of course, but all I ask is that they also try to step back and look at it from an outsider perspective… to take a look that others feelings may be a little hurt also.

Now, to me I saw Emergent Village as a great resource for ideas. I loved the podcasts and thought they gave some thought provoking insights… I think the issue is that instead of sticking with the strong points of being what they were good at they tried to become a community… sorry we already have communities going yet, to lose Emergent Village as a resource does sting a bit. The Podcast is still going yet, if Emergent Village would look to being a resource and think of ways to help the communities that are going, then they may find their strong point again.

The bummer thing is that no one wants to publish “emerging” books as they stated as they did not sell well… so… how about starting a emerging publishing company? I mean Brian Mclaren alone could probably get it going… and make it a ground roots type thing where people can get books published and sell them as part of the resource help. (Hmmm dang good idea to me!)

My greatest advice is that Tony and Doug try not to get defensive and go on the offensive… you are leaders of sorts… whether you want to be or not… and whether people want you to be or not… but if you have your finger on the pulse as some of us think you once really did… then help us make things happen.

I hope I am not coming across to cranky… I am not meaning to say I am not thankful for all Doug and Tony have done. I just pray that they can focus or refocus on helping others grow.

Tony’s response to the “Death of Emergent” voices.

Tony has a post that gives others views of what is happening to Emergent Village

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Tony and Doug let loose on those who are disappointed in "Emergent Village"

Personally the this all sounds like the old “I am not getting fed” statement I hear at some churches… to that I would reply, “Are you still a baby that needs to still be fed? Have you thought that maybe it is your turn to feed someone else?” Now I agree, maybe the failure is not the “so-called” leaders, but those who are out there sitting on their butts not doing anything!

OK, the other side of the coin is this. If emerging is a movement, then it WILL pass… if it is not just a movement, then it will continue and even grow into something else… but still leaving the seeds to continue. My personal view is that emerging itself (which is different from Emergent) is the ongoing conversation that God started in Genesis with… “Let there be…” so it will not fade, it was always there in some fashion (whether called emerging or not) and will always be as long as Jesus is.

To a point I agree with Doug and Tony… yet in a way I think they are missing the boat. How? Some think that that Doug jumped ship and is off doing his radio show and thinking of politics (to some that may be boring Doug… sorry) and some think maybe that Tony has sort of gone off the reservation… (Sorry Tony, I still want to discuss some of your views with you.) Maybe that is a little harsh, but if I feel that way I imagine others do also.

Really I don’t suppose I will hear from either of these guys… (which may be part of the issue again) Do they have the right to feel as they do… of course, but all I ask is that they also try to step back and look at it from an outsider perspective… to take a look that others feelings may be a little hurt also.

Now, to me I saw Emergent Village as a great resource for ideas. I loved the podcasts and thought they gave some thought provoking insights… I think the issue is that instead of sticking with the strong points of being what they were good at they tried to become a community… sorry we already have communities going yet, to lose Emergent Village as a resource does sting a bit. The Podcast is still going yet, if Emergent Village would look to being a resource and think of ways to help the communities that are going, then they may find their strong point again.

The bummer thing is that no one wants to publish “emerging” books as they stated as they did not sell well… so… how about starting a emerging publishing company? I mean Brian Mclaren alone could probably get it going… and make it a ground roots type thing where people can get books published and sell them as part of the resource help. (Hmmm dang good idea to me!)

My greatest advice is that Tony and Doug try not to get defensive and go on the offensive… you are leaders of sorts… whether you want to be or not… and whether people want you to be or not… but if you have your finger on the pulse as some of us think you once really did… then help us make things happen.

I hope I am not coming across to cranky… I am not meaning to say I am not thankful for all Doug and Tony have done. I just pray that they can focus or refocus on helping others grow.

Tony’s response to the “Death of Emergent” voices.

Tony has a post that gives others views of what is happening to Emergent Village

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It’s a matter of identity

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Often I see critics of the emerging conversation take quotes out of context and then building straw men arguments against them.

I admit there are some issues in the emerging conversation… yet that is true in all “movements” or denominations. I feel sometimes that the critics actually hurt people like me who can speak to those in my camp and show them were error may lie. (I also still do not see the conversation as a movement as it loses its prophetic power to speak to this generation)

One area is the area of homosexuality. I agree with Brian McLaren that we need to step back and look at human sexuality as a whole and respond to thinks like divorce, fornication as well as homosexuality. The issue I have is that some are too “accepting” of the lifestyle and not seeing that it is not about accepting lifestyles but about accepting people and teaching them a proper identity as a new creation.

Yet, instead, I see the backlash of the gay bashing crowd… the back lash being “gay is ok”… and that is not even a question to me biblically. Gay is no more ok than if I cheated on my wife… grace covers it, but is not a license to sin, but to do what is good. Is cheating on my wife good? No! So also any sin, gossip, slander, homosexuality or fornication and one and on… are all harmful to us and others and is not expressing the love of God.

Now that does not negate that if we sin… or that we may struggle with sin… that we do not have a Mediator… yet the challenge is not to accept our sin and live in it…. but to overcome it and leave it.

This is not some over night success process… and I think God teaches us through the struggles.

If I cheated on my wife and she gave me the grace of not leaving me, we would have to learn together how to trust and love each other once again… or even for the first time. That would be hard… and not something God would just heal overnight in most cases…

Sexuality needs to be addressed in light of our new identity as New Creations and being Children of God… once that is in place, we no longer cling to “I am gay” or ” I am a drunk” or ” I am a doctor” or “I am a fireman” or “I am a schizophrenic” and so on… We may struggle with these things… (Pride with a job even) but we no longer identify as that being us.

We who are now in Christ are New Creations. Though we still have this corrupted suit of flesh, God now has given us to power and all the tools to live by the Spirit. This means we should listen to the Holy Spirit as he leads us in all truth and have our minds renewed. By having our minds renewed we learn that sin, though forgivable, is not just wrong, but stupid. By learning to live a confessional life, we learn to agree with God when we do stupid things. He does not condemn us and will lift us up and help us to be the living sacrifices he has called us to.

Living or “abiding” in Christ, is about learning to understand what God wants us to know about being fully human. To focus on just our sexuality or job or whatever and allowing it to be our identity we are not believing the Truth of who we are “in Christ”.

I think that anyone who sees sin as God does will realize that if someone is gay, or overweight or any other “sin” they are not allowing the Holy Spirit to teach them.

We all have a big “Fail” sign on our foreheads. Only Jesus has “accepted” on his… and when we are “in Christ” we too are accepted by the Father.

Again, this is not easy to learn for some… there is a struggle yet grace gives us a huge learning curve toward success. God loves us, and by that we learn to love ourselves and others as God does.

It’s a matter of identity

var addthis_pub=”iggy”;
Often I see critics of the emerging conversation take quotes out of context and then building straw men arguments against them.

I admit there are some issues in the emerging conversation… yet that is true in all “movements” or denominations. I feel sometimes that the critics actually hurt people like me who can speak to those in my camp and show them were error may lie. (I also still do not see the conversation as a movement as it loses its prophetic power to speak to this generation)

One area is the area of homosexuality. I agree with Brian McLaren that we need to step back and look at human sexuality as a whole and respond to thinks like divorce, fornication as well as homosexuality. The issue I have is that some are too “accepting” of the lifestyle and not seeing that it is not about accepting lifestyles but about accepting people and teaching them a proper identity as a new creation.

Yet, instead, I see the backlash of the gay bashing crowd… the back lash being “gay is ok”… and that is not even a question to me biblically. Gay is no more ok than if I cheated on my wife… grace covers it, but is not a license to sin, but to do what is good. Is cheating on my wife good? No! So also any sin, gossip, slander, homosexuality or fornication and one and on… are all harmful to us and others and is not expressing the love of God.

Now that does not negate that if we sin… or that we may struggle with sin… that we do not have a Mediator… yet the challenge is not to accept our sin and live in it…. but to overcome it and leave it.

This is not some over night success process… and I think God teaches us through the struggles.

If I cheated on my wife and she gave me the grace of not leaving me, we would have to learn together how to trust and love each other once again… or even for the first time. That would be hard… and not something God would just heal overnight in most cases…

Sexuality needs to be addressed in light of our new identity as New Creations and being Children of God… once that is in place, we no longer cling to “I am gay” or ” I am a drunk” or ” I am a doctor” or “I am a fireman” or “I am a schizophrenic” and so on… We may struggle with these things… (Pride with a job even) but we no longer identify as that being us.

We who are now in Christ are New Creations. Though we still have this corrupted suit of flesh, God now has given us to power and all the tools to live by the Spirit. This means we should listen to the Holy Spirit as he leads us in all truth and have our minds renewed. By having our minds renewed we learn that sin, though forgivable, is not just wrong, but stupid. By learning to live a confessional life, we learn to agree with God when we do stupid things. He does not condemn us and will lift us up and help us to be the living sacrifices he has called us to.

Living or “abiding” in Christ, is about learning to understand what God wants us to know about being fully human. To focus on just our sexuality or job or whatever and allowing it to be our identity we are not believing the Truth of who we are “in Christ”.

I think that anyone who sees sin as God does will realize that if someone is gay, or overweight or any other “sin” they are not allowing the Holy Spirit to teach them.

We all have a big “Fail” sign on our foreheads. Only Jesus has “accepted” on his… and when we are “in Christ” we too are accepted by the Father.

Again, this is not easy to learn for some… there is a struggle yet grace gives us a huge learning curve toward success. God loves us, and by that we learn to love ourselves and others as God does.

Face of Emerging changing?

I just read an interesting article at Emergent Village where Jonathan Brink is covering the latest Emerging Church conference. I found it interesting that as I have stated for over a year now that emerging will be morphing into something different. For a while emerging has been called, “young, white, rebellious, adolescent”… etc, yet, as one that is a bit older myself than the “average” emerging (whatever that is!) I found that the face of emerging is much older. Johnathan mentions, “The average age in the room was at least 50.” BTW, if that is true, then I am one of the young ones at age 44! lol!

So is Emergent coming of age? I have more thoughts on this yet not enough time to get them written down. Suffice it to say, I remember many time as a youngster, that I would sit through teachings on how God used the young to bring on revival. My view is that emerging IS the revival that so many desire… and is spreading.

Face of Emerging changing?

I just read an interesting article at Emergent Village where Jonathan Brink is covering the latest Emerging Church conference. I found it interesting that as I have stated for over a year now that emerging will be morphing into something different. For a while emerging has been called, “young, white, rebellious, adolescent”… etc, yet, as one that is a bit older myself than the “average” emerging (whatever that is!) I found that the face of emerging is much older. Johnathan mentions, “The average age in the room was at least 50.” BTW, if that is true, then I am one of the young ones at age 44! lol!

So is Emergent coming of age? I have more thoughts on this yet not enough time to get them written down. Suffice it to say, I remember many time as a youngster, that I would sit through teachings on how God used the young to bring on revival. My view is that emerging IS the revival that so many desire… and is spreading.

More thoughts on the emerging church.

I just read an article which the Emergent Village Twitter feed via Global Voices. Emergent Village raised the idea that there is an Emergent Islam. Now, before someone jumps to conclusions (and you know who you are LOL!) this does not mean the Tony Jones has set up a new camp in Morocco and changed to the Islamic faith. No, the idea that many miss is that other faiths are emerging as the Christian faith is. Now this is a side of emerging that is probably the most controversial and may be considered by some the most dangerous. It is the idea of questioning or “deconstructing” one’s faith. Yet, many miss this is not just a “emerging Christian” phenomenon. In fact it is happening in many other faiths such as Judaism and Islam.

These religions are also looking at their belief systems and some in them are even challenging the systems and sometimes even the authorities. I point of interest to me is that all of these religions are based in the Biblical Patriarchs. In one way I see this as just a sign of the times. We are on a major time of “shaking” which I see is the prophetic “shaking” spoken in Luke 21:25-27

25. “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Now don’t get me wrong I do not mean this like the Left Behind series… though I believe in the Resurrection with the bodily return of Jesus to bring the regeneration of all things, I do not believe in the Rapture theory that we will be whisked away and not face tribulation. I also am a partial preterist though I see some of the prophecies as “near/far” meaning that though they have been fulfilled in one sense the often are fulfilled in a fuller sense later. (Some other time I will go into that deeper). Yet saying all that I point to this verse in that we now live in a time were people are living in fear and signs are all over that great changes are about to happen. I think that even that we in the USA have just voted a new president over his promise or “Change” should be an indication… though I do not see that this “Change” is coming as expected.

Yet, I do see that there is a shaking that has come where people of Islam, Judaism and Christianity are looking for something greater. I point of interest is that there is a rise in Messianic Muslims who are looking for the return of Jesus to set things right. Now debate whether this is the True Messiah could be very interesting, the point is that Jesus seems to be more and more a focal point in this time. The “heavenly bodies” to me could be the powers that run this worlds system being of a spiritual nature. These powers are being shaken in their authority and challenged on many levels. Not all call Christian is of true faith. There is much that is man-made that needs to be shaken as that is not of Christ will fall away.

It is an interesting and yet terrifying time. For some it is exciting as we see this unfolding of God’s hand doing His works, yet it is also a time that could be terrifying for some that do not have the security of knowing the True God. The end times will come with judgment. For the faithful this judgment will be a time of the Blessed Hope yet for those without Jesus this will be a time of fear and condemnation. We need to be missional minded to reach those we consider as “others” for Jesus. This means to look for what God is doing in people which often we might not expect God is doing anything in. Also, this is a time where prayer is of the most importance, and that we seek God for direction and a heart to see His work in all around us so we can bring reconciliation to them.

More thoughts on the emerging church.

I just read an article which the Emergent Village Twitter feed via Global Voices. Emergent Village raised the idea that there is an Emergent Islam. Now, before someone jumps to conclusions (and you know who you are LOL!) this does not mean the Tony Jones has set up a new camp in Morocco and changed to the Islamic faith. No, the idea that many miss is that other faiths are emerging as the Christian faith is. Now this is a side of emerging that is probably the most controversial and may be considered by some the most dangerous. It is the idea of questioning or “deconstructing” one’s faith. Yet, many miss this is not just a “emerging Christian” phenomenon. In fact it is happening in many other faiths such as Judaism and Islam.

These religions are also looking at their belief systems and some in them are even challenging the systems and sometimes even the authorities. I point of interest to me is that all of these religions are based in the Biblical Patriarchs. In one way I see this as just a sign of the times. We are on a major time of “shaking” which I see is the prophetic “shaking” spoken in Luke 21:25-27

25. “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Now don’t get me wrong I do not mean this like the Left Behind series… though I believe in the Resurrection with the bodily return of Jesus to bring the regeneration of all things, I do not believe in the Rapture theory that we will be whisked away and not face tribulation. I also am a partial preterist though I see some of the prophecies as “near/far” meaning that though they have been fulfilled in one sense the often are fulfilled in a fuller sense later. (Some other time I will go into that deeper). Yet saying all that I point to this verse in that we now live in a time were people are living in fear and signs are all over that great changes are about to happen. I think that even that we in the USA have just voted a new president over his promise or “Change” should be an indication… though I do not see that this “Change” is coming as expected.

Yet, I do see that there is a shaking that has come where people of Islam, Judaism and Christianity are looking for something greater. I point of interest is that there is a rise in Messianic Muslims who are looking for the return of Jesus to set things right. Now debate whether this is the True Messiah could be very interesting, the point is that Jesus seems to be more and more a focal point in this time. The “heavenly bodies” to me could be the powers that run this worlds system being of a spiritual nature. These powers are being shaken in their authority and challenged on many levels. Not all call Christian is of true faith. There is much that is man-made that needs to be shaken as that is not of Christ will fall away.

It is an interesting and yet terrifying time. For some it is exciting as we see this unfolding of God’s hand doing His works, yet it is also a time that could be terrifying for some that do not have the security of knowing the True God. The end times will come with judgment. For the faithful this judgment will be a time of the Blessed Hope yet for those without Jesus this will be a time of fear and condemnation. We need to be missional minded to reach those we consider as “others” for Jesus. This means to look for what God is doing in people which often we might not expect God is doing anything in. Also, this is a time where prayer is of the most importance, and that we seek God for direction and a heart to see His work in all around us so we can bring reconciliation to them.