My last words to my HYPER CRITICS

(I hope that one will realize that much of this is no longer an issue to me. The people who did most of the initial attack have dropped off the map or have gone on to discredit themselves by losing jobs in their attacking of me and others. I hope the reader will not just read this post but go on to read other things I have written.)

I find it rather strange how some will demand perfect doctrine from others…

Recently I received a post I did not let through because the person is so full of hate towards the emerging church and myself I just saw it as not healthy for the discussions going on… I am sure if one wants to read what this person says and they read my blog they will put 2 and 2 together… and know who he is… In fact I am reluctant to even post this as I am sure he will be perversely encouraged that he has gotten a raise out of me. Yet, in fact he has not… I did want to point out as I have at time before some basic things about this blog.

It is now a chronicle of over two year’s journey of my faith. So I hope one might see:
1. I may have grown over that time
2. That I might have written something once and then have either sharpened the original thought or even have changed my mind
3. Written something and not “notated” a source ( this is a blog not a doctorate thesis btw)
4. Written something in hopes to be controversial to spark a discussion.
5. Written something that I hoped would cause some to think and dig deeper.
6. I hope that one would realize I do not want anyone to just take my word on things but search out what God says. (Be like the Bereans!)
7. I have written some things and tried to be open, honest and even vulnerable… in that I have been called a liar… Yet, I am only a human with frailties so please don’t expect me to be perfect… only God is perfect.
8. I may not have fully developed a thought, but omission does not mean I am a heretic… but it does mean someone who is HYPER critical of me may not have all the facts!

9. In areas of Theology I admit fully I am looking at many things and thoughts. If I quote Barth or Spurgeon it does not mean I approve 100% of their thoughts or ideas. This goes for MacArthur or McLaren as well.

On the Bible I am accused of not believing in inerrancy of the Bible.

I am certain that the original manuscripts were without error… yet any scholar or basic bible student will know that we do not have those original hand written manuscripts or can verify if we do that that is the one that Peter or John hand wrote themselves… we do have thousands and thousands of manuscripts that allow me to be certain that what we have is God’s written word. Yet as I read scripture I see that Mark will say Jesus said something and quote Him and in Matthew or Luke Jesus will be quoted just a bit different. Some will say that it is because Jesus may have said it one way in one place and another in yet another place… yet that is never stated in the Bible and is pure speculation. I see though that the core of the statement is intact and the intent of the teaching or statement is most important than the exact quote. I do not believe in an “inspired translation” only inspired “original” manuscripts… I do hold that the bible is God’s written word and does hold authority… Yet even saying that the authority is there only because Jesus is the Living Word. Without Jesus as the LIVING WORD to back up what is taught in the Bible, it would not have any authority. Authority is only given by a person… and words on a page do not have authority in themselves. That is what set Jesus’ teachings from the other Rabbi’s in His day… He taught with authority. Though I have not stated all of this in one place if one reads everything I have written (even the comments!) one will see that this is true and consistent. I recommend also reading the article I link to as it will go further than I may have in explaining my position on some things. Though on occasion I am relating an article to draw out more conversation from my readership.

What I see most from those who critique me, is that they will pull a partial sentence or statement and go, “I got you!” then use that to prove I have lied… or have taught false doctrine. That is why I have no problem when I do let a hyper critical person post a comment of giving their blogs address even when they are too cowardly to post their own links to their blogs. I know my readers are more sophisticated than these guys realize.

I have let their posts through to show their true love for me and others. Of course that is tongue in cheek I had hoped they will read themselves and realize they are not being Christ like… yet it seems to not work so I may be changing that very soon and not letting any HYPER CRITCAL voices through as they do not add to a conversation but distract and divide and are often abusive which is not edifying to me, and especially my readership. I will let those who disagree with me… respectfully… post and will be glad to clarify/work through/ pray with/ and anything else we can do in order to fellowship and edify each other.

Steve is a new commenter on my blog and in the recent postings on John MacArthur has pointed out I am misrepresenting JM… We may disagree and soon I am sure I will be off the JM kick and on to better things. Yet, Steve has been a shining example of respect and gentleness. He has been very Christ-like and I truly appreciate his thoughts. I have even gone over things even more closely and have tried to be open to all sides. In Fact I have stated I agree with JM on many things.

(I have said that many of the critics of JM are not accurate especially Ryrie who is one of the harsher critics of JM and goes way overboard in trying to discredit JM. Again I am not out to discredit JM but I am looking at his doctrinal statements as he has the EC and I am finding things I do not agree with.)

If someone wants to discredit someone (which seems a bit weird someone would be so fascinated by me and hate me so much to try to harm me and my ministry) they can find much I am sure… If one of my critics was not so cowardly and had opened his life to his readers (instead of his perverted version of mine) I am sure anyone could go post by post, line by line and construct heresy and false doctrine from him also… in fact he is so busy saying things I have not said, or twisting things I have to mean totally the opposite I am not sure how he has time for much else in his life… but I guess we all have to have a hobby.

I am sure he will bring up the “little card that says I am a reverend” that was twisted by another critic that I was saying it “proved” I was one… In fact I said that tongue in cheek not knowing that person had no sense of humor… Then another person took it and went even farther with it… so here is the story and connection with UCMI (About UCMI) which I am ordained through. (Though I am still ordained through UCMI as I have no need to be now… I am active in the local Vineyard Church plant updated: 4/27/2007). My calling is not from man but God. I walk in the gift of “pastoring” for a pastor is that, a gift to edify and build up the Body.

These people state I am a fraudulent Reverend do to my connection with UCMI. I have explained why I connected with them which was to be able to be accountable as I was in the process of planting a church in Billings MT. UCMI was different than many of the “get ordained” sites as they had a few more things going for them. They had a school and a support system in which if I needed I could attend and talk to others in ministry as I see isolation is the major issue all churches today… it causes things like Ted Haggard and such to not be accountable. And I wanted to be accountable not just to my direct congregation… but to an outside source that could revoke my ordination if I strayed outside of preaching the gospel of Christ.

I was placed on a year’s probation, in which I could not do weddings… which I had no real interest in doing. In this time I was to fulfill certain ministry obligations such as “bear fruit” in some aspect and also pursue some educational recommendations. After the years probation in which I had gotten to know some of the people in leadership and such I was required as I am every year to submit my goals for the year and to show what I have already accomplished for that year. If one does not do this they will be put on “inactive status”. I am still in “active status”. They ask for support which would be 3% of what your ministry brings in… Which is about what most denominations require. They have never demanded nor told me I had to send money or lose my status. Over all I have been treated professionally even more so than when I was a Youth Pastor in a major denomination. I viewed them as a correspondence school… I never cared about accreditation as I see things much like Moody did (he declined ordination as he believed he did not need man’s approval on his calling) I agreed and again, I did it not for approval, but for accountability. The accreditation was not that important to me as I know that many major denominations are not accredited and have produced some top teachers and preachers… such as Calvary Chapel. Many denominations ordain within their own denomination and have non accredited schools… I will say that as I looked into UCMI “accreditation’s” I think that they are not trying to be dishonest, but rather be honest and show they are accredited… yet I think those that have may not be that great of “accreditors”. Again, I do not believe this is out of dishonesty rather it may be just bad judgment and would be better to just say they are not accredited. I say this as I have gotten to know the people and know that God is using them… I do not see them as “con men”. People make mistakes and to one HYPER CRITIC’s credit he has given me at least that benefit of the doubt… in which I do not rule out any possibility that I could be duped. I really do not believe this to be so.

As far as “the little card that says I am a Rev.” I received the card after the year’s probation… I never “paid for it” and I receive a new one as I renew my ordination… which does not cost me more than the time to fill out the annual report I am required to do every year. (This quote about the card was stated as a bit of a joke on my part and then taken to mean something entirely different… that the card somehow qualified me to have more credentials…LOL! since I no longer have a card and am active in the Vineyard this is all really mute)

Again, I have not even sent in for a “parchment” nor have ever thought I needed one. In fact I see that I have received much more from UCMI than I have ever given… which is sad to say not much as income has not been a stable thing for my family. These critics argument would be like me saying I did not agree with the SBC so did not accept any ordinations their fellowships gave to their Pastors. It is based only on that these people do not see UCMI as credible.

In the 6 years I have been an official ministry… (Word of Mouth Ministries) I have received only $540 total… any other cost has come out of my own BTW as far as a registered ministry WoMM is registered as a ministry in Montana (we have a EIN). It is not registered as a non profit (though we make no profit) or rather we do not have 501(c)3. Again, I have been up front with that.

I have never used my ordination for personal gain… I had it on my page just because I am proud of the fact of my calling. Yet since then things have changed… and were changing at the time these HYPER CRITCS began their attack on my character.

I met Allen Hodges of Vineyard and we have become good friends. I have shown him the “blogs” and he has laughed… I am at present an Intern in the Billings Vineyard Church. I am on the leadership team… neither of these are positions I have pursued… they have been offered to me by Allen. As a new fellowship we have been growing steadily and have just moved into a building after meeting at Allen’s house. There are some really exciting things happening. I see God moving in a mighty way. I have dropped the “ordination” for two reasons.
I am not planting a church so am not in the one as far as position
I am “pastoring” but have not been given the “title” from Vineyard, so will not us that “title” in that way. I am still an ordained “minister” in good standing with UCMI.

As far as education, I have always been up front I do not have much formal education and what I do have, I would never brag about. I have never studied nor claim to have studied Greek… I always point out I am using a Strong’s Concordance… I also have friends who have M. div and Dr Div in which I have run past some of the things I do talk about using Greek or Hebrew… With that if they disagree I will usually not write about the topic until I work out the kinks a bit more… of the things like “Ekklesia” I have talked extensively with my friends with higher education and have gotten enthusiastic thumbs up. (One is a SBC pastor who is not in the EC). The issue is that one person thinks that I add too much to the word Ekklesia as I see it as defined as “Called out Ones” or “Ones Called out to Perfection”, disagrees with the latter as he does not see “perfection” connected to the word “ekklesia” in the Greek… I do and others do… I veiw the Church being Christ’s Body a Living Organism… as Christ Lives, so does His Body. I see that in the “ek” part of the “ekklesia” which is:

Strong’s Ref. # 1537
Romanized ekPronounced ek
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):
KJV–after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, …ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

This is from Strong’s definitions… and I see in that portion of the word the “higher calling” that Jesus used the word to mean something more akin to “perfection”. This is a richer word than “a meeting place”. Even if one may not agree with that being specific in it’s meaning, the rest of Scripture teaches that we are called to that very purpose, to be perfected in Christ.

These guys get much nastier than this simple disagreement… I often wonder if they think that they are fighting against flesh and blood by using the worldly weapons to attack me with.

I have pointed out one of these people denies that a relationship is needed to be saved. He is a false teacher if he teaches that and JM would not agree at all. Yet, his word is believed over mine because he is aligned with people at SOL.

I have publicly forgiven both these men in their slander… and will continue to. I will also continue to pray for them as I see that they are sincere in their belief they need to defend God… I do not hate these men… I do get frustrated in having to give defense… in that this will be the last time I address them, unless they repent from trying to harm me and apologize for their sin. For me I will live at peace with them the best I can and walk in Christ’s forgiveness for the power to forgive them. I will not address them if they continue to lie and slander me… in that I turn them over to God to deal with them.

Please in no way think this means I am censoring people because I disagree with them. The issue is that these people no matter what I say just plain hate me for whatever reason… I believe even if I was to “repent” and begin to believe and act like them, they would still call me a liar. So, I don’t think engaging THEM is of any real value or edifies the Body of Christ is a true manner. I do not have an issue with disagreement. In fact I enjoy “friendly” debates and think discussion on theology as challenging and fun… I do not care for name calling… (Which I know I am guilty of and have apologized for in the past… and will again as I am sure I will inadvertently do it again…. As I said I am just a human being and not perfect!) But I will not keep engaging in these peoples open sin and rebellion against the scriptures prohibition concerning judging others not will I allow myself to be pulled into defending myself again because of their slander and lies… they can contend with God on those things. I will continue to pray for them and I know that God is faithful and will finish the work He started in these men… I am content with God doing His works in and through them… according to His great will and purpose. If they want to know what I really do teach the blogger links below will connect one to all the (Answers to my Critics) I will not give them any more of my time or energy as I have greater things to do than try to show someone how “Christian” I am. I will not have anything to do with these divisive men. (Titus 3:10)

This next year I hope will be exciting and another growing experience. I have already begun studies on knowledge and will be posting those in the next month (Jan). I am also hoping to be able to take a class in Greek that my pastor will be teaching at Vineyard so pray for me as I have not had much luck learning other languages.

My prayer is to be a blessing to those who read my blog… and to grow in understanding in each other as we all grow in the Knowledge and Grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Blessings,
iggy

My last words to my HYPER CRITICS

(I hope that one will realize that much of this is no longer an issue to me. The people who did most of the initial attack have dropped off the map or have gone on to discredit themselves by losing jobs in their attacking of me and others. I hope the reader will not just read this post but go on to read other things I have written.)

I find it rather strange how some will demand perfect doctrine from others…

Recently I received a post I did not let through because the person is so full of hate towards the emerging church and myself I just saw it as not healthy for the discussions going on… I am sure if one wants to read what this person says and they read my blog they will put 2 and 2 together… and know who he is… In fact I am reluctant to even post this as I am sure he will be perversely encouraged that he has gotten a raise out of me. Yet, in fact he has not… I did want to point out as I have at time before some basic things about this blog.

It is now a chronicle of over two year’s journey of my faith. So I hope one might see:
1. I may have grown over that time
2. That I might have written something once and then have either sharpened the original thought or even have changed my mind
3. Written something and not “notated” a source ( this is a blog not a doctorate thesis btw)
4. Written something in hopes to be controversial to spark a discussion.
5. Written something that I hoped would cause some to think and dig deeper.
6. I hope that one would realize I do not want anyone to just take my word on things but search out what God says. (Be like the Bereans!)
7. I have written some things and tried to be open, honest and even vulnerable… in that I have been called a liar… Yet, I am only a human with frailties so please don’t expect me to be perfect… only God is perfect.
8. I may not have fully developed a thought, but omission does not mean I am a heretic… but it does mean someone who is HYPER critical of me may not have all the facts!

9. In areas of Theology I admit fully I am looking at many things and thoughts. If I quote Barth or Spurgeon it does not mean I approve 100% of their thoughts or ideas. This goes for MacArthur or McLaren as well.

On the Bible I am accused of not believing in inerrancy of the Bible.

I am certain that the original manuscripts were without error… yet any scholar or basic bible student will know that we do not have those original hand written manuscripts or can verify if we do that that is the one that Peter or John hand wrote themselves… we do have thousands and thousands of manuscripts that allow me to be certain that what we have is God’s written word. Yet as I read scripture I see that Mark will say Jesus said something and quote Him and in Matthew or Luke Jesus will be quoted just a bit different. Some will say that it is because Jesus may have said it one way in one place and another in yet another place… yet that is never stated in the Bible and is pure speculation. I see though that the core of the statement is intact and the intent of the teaching or statement is most important than the exact quote. I do not believe in an “inspired translation” only inspired “original” manuscripts… I do hold that the bible is God’s written word and does hold authority… Yet even saying that the authority is there only because Jesus is the Living Word. Without Jesus as the LIVING WORD to back up what is taught in the Bible, it would not have any authority. Authority is only given by a person… and words on a page do not have authority in themselves. That is what set Jesus’ teachings from the other Rabbi’s in His day… He taught with authority. Though I have not stated all of this in one place if one reads everything I have written (even the comments!) one will see that this is true and consistent. I recommend also reading the article I link to as it will go further than I may have in explaining my position on some things. Though on occasion I am relating an article to draw out more conversation from my readership.

What I see most from those who critique me, is that they will pull a partial sentence or statement and go, “I got you!” then use that to prove I have lied… or have taught false doctrine. That is why I have no problem when I do let a hyper critical person post a comment of giving their blogs address even when they are too cowardly to post their own links to their blogs. I know my readers are more sophisticated than these guys realize.

I have let their posts through to show their true love for me and others. Of course that is tongue in cheek I had hoped they will read themselves and realize they are not being Christ like… yet it seems to not work so I may be changing that very soon and not letting any HYPER CRITCAL voices through as they do not add to a conversation but distract and divide and are often abusive which is not edifying to me, and especially my readership. I will let those who disagree with me… respectfully… post and will be glad to clarify/work through/ pray with/ and anything else we can do in order to fellowship and edify each other.

Steve is a new commenter on my blog and in the recent postings on John MacArthur has pointed out I am misrepresenting JM… We may disagree and soon I am sure I will be off the JM kick and on to better things. Yet, Steve has been a shining example of respect and gentleness. He has been very Christ-like and I truly appreciate his thoughts. I have even gone over things even more closely and have tried to be open to all sides. In Fact I have stated I agree with JM on many things.

(I have said that many of the critics of JM are not accurate especially Ryrie who is one of the harsher critics of JM and goes way overboard in trying to discredit JM. Again I am not out to discredit JM but I am looking at his doctrinal statements as he has the EC and I am finding things I do not agree with.)

If someone wants to discredit someone (which seems a bit weird someone would be so fascinated by me and hate me so much to try to harm me and my ministry) they can find much I am sure… If one of my critics was not so cowardly and had opened his life to his readers (instead of his perverted version of mine) I am sure anyone could go post by post, line by line and construct heresy and false doctrine from him also… in fact he is so busy saying things I have not said, or twisting things I have to mean totally the opposite I am not sure how he has time for much else in his life… but I guess we all have to have a hobby.

I am sure he will bring up the “little card that says I am a reverend” that was twisted by another critic that I was saying it “proved” I was one… In fact I said that tongue in cheek not knowing that person had no sense of humor… Then another person took it and went even farther with it… so here is the story and connection with UCMI (About UCMI) which I am ordained through. (Though I am still ordained through UCMI as I have no need to be now… I am active in the local Vineyard Church plant updated: 4/27/2007). My calling is not from man but God. I walk in the gift of “pastoring” for a pastor is that, a gift to edify and build up the Body.

These people state I am a fraudulent Reverend do to my connection with UCMI. I have explained why I connected with them which was to be able to be accountable as I was in the process of planting a church in Billings MT. UCMI was different than many of the “get ordained” sites as they had a few more things going for them. They had a school and a support system in which if I needed I could attend and talk to others in ministry as I see isolation is the major issue all churches today… it causes things like Ted Haggard and such to not be accountable. And I wanted to be accountable not just to my direct congregation… but to an outside source that could revoke my ordination if I strayed outside of preaching the gospel of Christ.

I was placed on a year’s probation, in which I could not do weddings… which I had no real interest in doing. In this time I was to fulfill certain ministry obligations such as “bear fruit” in some aspect and also pursue some educational recommendations. After the years probation in which I had gotten to know some of the people in leadership and such I was required as I am every year to submit my goals for the year and to show what I have already accomplished for that year. If one does not do this they will be put on “inactive status”. I am still in “active status”. They ask for support which would be 3% of what your ministry brings in… Which is about what most denominations require. They have never demanded nor told me I had to send money or lose my status. Over all I have been treated professionally even more so than when I was a Youth Pastor in a major denomination. I viewed them as a correspondence school… I never cared about accreditation as I see things much like Moody did (he declined ordination as he believed he did not need man’s approval on his calling) I agreed and again, I did it not for approval, but for accountability. The accreditation was not that important to me as I know that many major denominations are not accredited and have produced some top teachers and preachers… such as Calvary Chapel. Many denominations ordain within their own denomination and have non accredited schools… I will say that as I looked into UCMI “accreditation’s” I think that they are not trying to be dishonest, but rather be honest and show they are accredited… yet I think those that have may not be that great of “accreditors”. Again, I do not believe this is out of dishonesty rather it may be just bad judgment and would be better to just say they are not accredited. I say this as I have gotten to know the people and know that God is using them… I do not see them as “con men”. People make mistakes and to one HYPER CRITIC’s credit he has given me at least that benefit of the doubt… in which I do not rule out any possibility that I could be duped. I really do not believe this to be so.

As far as “the little card that says I am a Rev.” I received the card after the year’s probation… I never “paid for it” and I receive a new one as I renew my ordination… which does not cost me more than the time to fill out the annual report I am required to do every year. (This quote about the card was stated as a bit of a joke on my part and then taken to mean something entirely different… that the card somehow qualified me to have more credentials…LOL! since I no longer have a card and am active in the Vineyard this is all really mute)

Again, I have not even sent in for a “parchment” nor have ever thought I needed one. In fact I see that I have received much more from UCMI than I have ever given… which is sad to say not much as income has not been a stable thing for my family. These critics argument would be like me saying I did not agree with the SBC so did not accept any ordinations their fellowships gave to their Pastors. It is based only on that these people do not see UCMI as credible.

In the 6 years I have been an official ministry… (Word of Mouth Ministries) I have received only $540 total… any other cost has come out of my own BTW as far as a registered ministry WoMM is registered as a ministry in Montana (we have a EIN). It is not registered as a non profit (though we make no profit) or rather we do not have 501(c)3. Again, I have been up front with that.

I have never used my ordination for personal gain… I had it on my page just because I am proud of the fact of my calling. Yet since then things have changed… and were changing at the time these HYPER CRITCS began their attack on my character.

I met Allen Hodges of Vineyard and we have become good friends. I have shown him the “blogs” and he has laughed… I am at present an Intern in the Billings Vineyard Church. I am on the leadership team… neither of these are positions I have pursued… they have been offered to me by Allen. As a new fellowship we have been growing steadily and have just moved into a building after meeting at Allen’s house. There are some really exciting things happening. I see God moving in a mighty way. I have dropped the “ordination” for two reasons.
I am not planting a church so am not in the one as far as position
I am “pastoring” but have not been given the “title” from Vineyard, so will not us that “title” in that way. I am still an ordained “minister” in good standing with UCMI.

As far as education, I have always been up front I do not have much formal education and what I do have, I would never brag about. I have never studied nor claim to have studied Greek… I always point out I am using a Strong’s Concordance… I also have friends who have M. div and Dr Div in which I have run past some of the things I do talk about using Greek or Hebrew… With that if they disagree I will usually not write about the topic until I work out the kinks a bit more… of the things like “Ekklesia” I have talked extensively with my friends with higher education and have gotten enthusiastic thumbs up. (One is a SBC pastor who is not in the EC). The issue is that one person thinks that I add too much to the word Ekklesia as I see it as defined as “Called out Ones” or “Ones Called out to Perfection”, disagrees with the latter as he does not see “perfection” connected to the word “ekklesia” in the Greek… I do and others do… I veiw the Church being Christ’s Body a Living Organism… as Christ Lives, so does His Body. I see that in the “ek” part of the “ekklesia” which is:

Strong’s Ref. # 1537
Romanized ekPronounced ek
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):
KJV–after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, …ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

This is from Strong’s definitions… and I see in that portion of the word the “higher calling” that Jesus used the word to mean something more akin to “perfection”. This is a richer word than “a meeting place”. Even if one may not agree with that being specific in it’s meaning, the rest of Scripture teaches that we are called to that very purpose, to be perfected in Christ.

These guys get much nastier than this simple disagreement… I often wonder if they think that they are fighting against flesh and blood by using the worldly weapons to attack me with.

I have pointed out one of these people denies that a relationship is needed to be saved. He is a false teacher if he teaches that and JM would not agree at all. Yet, his word is believed over mine because he is aligned with people at SOL.

I have publicly forgiven both these men in their slander… and will continue to. I will also continue to pray for them as I see that they are sincere in their belief they need to defend God… I do not hate these men… I do get frustrated in having to give defense… in that this will be the last time I address them, unless they repent from trying to harm me and apologize for their sin. For me I will live at peace with them the best I can and walk in Christ’s forgiveness for the power to forgive them. I will not address them if they continue to lie and slander me… in that I turn them over to God to deal with them.

Please in no way think this means I am censoring people because I disagree with them. The issue is that these people no matter what I say just plain hate me for whatever reason… I believe even if I was to “repent” and begin to believe and act like them, they would still call me a liar. So, I don’t think engaging THEM is of any real value or edifies the Body of Christ is a true manner. I do not have an issue with disagreement. In fact I enjoy “friendly” debates and think discussion on theology as challenging and fun… I do not care for name calling… (Which I know I am guilty of and have apologized for in the past… and will again as I am sure I will inadvertently do it again…. As I said I am just a human being and not perfect!) But I will not keep engaging in these peoples open sin and rebellion against the scriptures prohibition concerning judging others not will I allow myself to be pulled into defending myself again because of their slander and lies… they can contend with God on those things. I will continue to pray for them and I know that God is faithful and will finish the work He started in these men… I am content with God doing His works in and through them… according to His great will and purpose. If they want to know what I really do teach the blogger links below will connect one to all the (Answers to my Critics) I will not give them any more of my time or energy as I have greater things to do than try to show someone how “Christian” I am. I will not have anything to do with these divisive men. (Titus 3:10)

This next year I hope will be exciting and another growing experience. I have already begun studies on knowledge and will be posting those in the next month (Jan). I am also hoping to be able to take a class in Greek that my pastor will be teaching at Vineyard so pray for me as I have not had much luck learning other languages.

My prayer is to be a blessing to those who read my blog… and to grow in understanding in each other as we all grow in the Knowledge and Grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Blessings,
iggy

Here are some other thoughts on Ekklesia

Here are some other thoughts on Ekklesia

EKKLESIA IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

Excerpt:

“Edhah in the Hebrew Bible describes the Israel of God. Before the Exile, qahal was employed to describe Israel assembled, but after the Exile it could describe Israel either assembled or not. In the Septuagint, sunagoge usually translated edhah, but it also translated qahal in the Pentateuch. The usual translation for qahal was ekklesia. Ekklesia takes on fuller meaning in Septuagint books referring to the postexilic period. It still translates qahal, which itself now included the fuller meaning of edhah. Thus, in the Septuagint, the Bible of the earliest Christians, the ekklesia of God meant the people of God. It had no necessary reference to localization and certainly none to organization.(13)”

The Ekklesia project

Excerpt:
“Therefore, we have formed a network of mutual support for the life of Christian discipleship support that, sadly, is lacking in many local congregations. We believe that we can help one another to narrow the gaps between what we Christians profess and how we live. We call this The Ekklesia Project, in recognition of the fact that we are “called out” of the world into a different mode of life.” Emphasis mine

United Church of God

“’Church’ and ‘Congregation’ in the ScripturesThe exact relationship of the New Testament Church (Greek ekklesia) to the congregation of Israel in the Old Testament can best be understood when we learn the different interpretations placed on the two Hebrew words for “congregation”: ‘edah and qahal.The Holman Bible Dictionary, in its article “Congregation,” explains that these Hebrew words were used with a significantly different meaning in the days of Christ and the apostles. “In the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint) ‘edah was usually translated (into Greek as) sunagoge, (and) qahal (as) ekklesia. In late Judaism (the Greek word) sunagoge depicted the actual Israelite people and (the word) ekklesia the ideal elect of God called to salvation. Hence (the Greek word) ekklesia became the term for the Christian congregation, the church . . . There is a direct spiritual continuity between the congregation of the Old Testament and the New Testament Church. Significantly the Christian community chose the Old Testament term for the ideal people of God called to salvation (ekklesia), rather than the term which described all Israelites collectively (sunagoge).”This explains why the New Testament word for the Church, ekklesia, refers only to those people, Jews and gentiles, who are called by God to receive salvation through Jesus Christ. Therefore the Church of God, the term most generally applied to God’s people in English translations of the New Testament, is the body of people who are special to God because they obey His Word and accept His Son, Jesus Christ, as the Messiah.” Emphasis mine

Our Lord’s ekklesia

Excerpt from part 2:

“Each passage cited has the Greek “kaleo” (translated call or called). The passages have to do with our relationship with God. This is only a partial list and it does not include passages that have the word “klesis” (e.g.Romans 11:29, Philippians 3:14, et al). After reading them, it makes sense that Jesus would use a word that means “the called out” (ekklesia) when speaking of what he would build (Matthew 16:18).”

Good stuff on this blog…

More excerpts from the “Church” Jesus is building:

“Jesus is using living stones to build His temple. Jesus is its foundation and its cornerstone. We become as living stones within His temple when we obey from the heart the message of salvation. We died with Christ so that we might live unto God (Romans 6:13). Our bodies are to be a living and holy sacrifice to God (Romans 12:1).”

The real question is not what do we call ourselves… but as one’s called out… what are we called out to? Who are we to become? What are we to do with this identity as living stones in the building Jesus is designing? Jesus just did not call us church, and the instituted a new religion.. nor did He call us out to just have get-togethers… it is the bedrock statement of faith that Jesus will build this new community… or gather place… It is in reference to the New Heaven and New Earth… it is in reference to the New Jerusalem… it is in reference to our new identity in Jesus and in become on in Him as He is in the Father.

To say Jesus is just saying Peter is starting the Catholic church… or that Jesus is saying that on Peter’s confession of Jesus being Messiah meaning that now we will just gather somewhere lessen the Truth as Jesus spoke these powerful words of how we of the Faith in Christ will be fulfilled in the promises He made.

I encourage all in Christ to no longer be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your minds in Christ Jesus.
Blessings
iggy

---

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Here are some other thoughts on Ekklesia

Here are some other thoughts on Ekklesia

EKKLESIA IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

Excerpt:

“Edhah in the Hebrew Bible describes the Israel of God. Before the Exile, qahal was employed to describe Israel assembled, but after the Exile it could describe Israel either assembled or not. In the Septuagint, sunagoge usually translated edhah, but it also translated qahal in the Pentateuch. The usual translation for qahal was ekklesia. Ekklesia takes on fuller meaning in Septuagint books referring to the postexilic period. It still translates qahal, which itself now included the fuller meaning of edhah. Thus, in the Septuagint, the Bible of the earliest Christians, the ekklesia of God meant the people of God. It had no necessary reference to localization and certainly none to organization.(13)”

The Ekklesia project

Excerpt:
“Therefore, we have formed a network of mutual support for the life of Christian discipleship support that, sadly, is lacking in many local congregations. We believe that we can help one another to narrow the gaps between what we Christians profess and how we live. We call this The Ekklesia Project, in recognition of the fact that we are “called out” of the world into a different mode of life.” Emphasis mine

United Church of God

“’Church’ and ‘Congregation’ in the ScripturesThe exact relationship of the New Testament Church (Greek ekklesia) to the congregation of Israel in the Old Testament can best be understood when we learn the different interpretations placed on the two Hebrew words for “congregation”: ‘edah and qahal.The Holman Bible Dictionary, in its article “Congregation,” explains that these Hebrew words were used with a significantly different meaning in the days of Christ and the apostles. “In the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint) ‘edah was usually translated (into Greek as) sunagoge, (and) qahal (as) ekklesia. In late Judaism (the Greek word) sunagoge depicted the actual Israelite people and (the word) ekklesia the ideal elect of God called to salvation. Hence (the Greek word) ekklesia became the term for the Christian congregation, the church . . . There is a direct spiritual continuity between the congregation of the Old Testament and the New Testament Church. Significantly the Christian community chose the Old Testament term for the ideal people of God called to salvation (ekklesia), rather than the term which described all Israelites collectively (sunagoge).”This explains why the New Testament word for the Church, ekklesia, refers only to those people, Jews and gentiles, who are called by God to receive salvation through Jesus Christ. Therefore the Church of God, the term most generally applied to God’s people in English translations of the New Testament, is the body of people who are special to God because they obey His Word and accept His Son, Jesus Christ, as the Messiah.” Emphasis mine

Our Lord’s ekklesia

Excerpt from part 2:

“Each passage cited has the Greek “kaleo” (translated call or called). The passages have to do with our relationship with God. This is only a partial list and it does not include passages that have the word “klesis” (e.g.Romans 11:29, Philippians 3:14, et al). After reading them, it makes sense that Jesus would use a word that means “the called out” (ekklesia) when speaking of what he would build (Matthew 16:18).”

Good stuff on this blog…

More excerpts from the “Church” Jesus is building:

“Jesus is using living stones to build His temple. Jesus is its foundation and its cornerstone. We become as living stones within His temple when we obey from the heart the message of salvation. We died with Christ so that we might live unto God (Romans 6:13). Our bodies are to be a living and holy sacrifice to God (Romans 12:1).”

The real question is not what do we call ourselves… but as one’s called out… what are we called out to? Who are we to become? What are we to do with this identity as living stones in the building Jesus is designing? Jesus just did not call us church, and the instituted a new religion.. nor did He call us out to just have get-togethers… it is the bedrock statement of faith that Jesus will build this new community… or gather place… It is in reference to the New Heaven and New Earth… it is in reference to the New Jerusalem… it is in reference to our new identity in Jesus and in become on in Him as He is in the Father.

To say Jesus is just saying Peter is starting the Catholic church… or that Jesus is saying that on Peter’s confession of Jesus being Messiah meaning that now we will just gather somewhere lessen the Truth as Jesus spoke these powerful words of how we of the Faith in Christ will be fulfilled in the promises He made.

I encourage all in Christ to no longer be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your minds in Christ Jesus.
Blessings
iggy

---

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The Church… Ekklesia

The Church… Ekklesia

I was asked about how I derived that “church” means “Called out Ones to perfection”….

Let me explain this a bit…

First off in Matthew 16:16 -18 Jesus states this:

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

My focus in on verse 18….

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome (NIV)

The literal translation is: I also and to you say, you are Peter, and upon this bedrock {statement} I will build of me the community and {the} gates of Hades not will prevail against her.

It is a little hard to read but you can see that there is an interesting change in the literal… the word “church” is “community”.

Strong’s Ref. # 1577

Romanized ekklesia
Pronounced ek-klay-see’-ah
from a compound of GSN1537 and a derivative of GSN2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):
KJV–assembly, church.

From this you can see that the word can be a calling out… to a specific place… like a popular meeting, religious congregation and at least in the KJV it is translated as assembly or church.

I do not see Jesus talking about “church” as we use it today… meaning “a building”, nor that it means “the people in the building”. At the time of Christ it was used mostly for political meetings. It may have been used in the case of Jews going to synagogue. Many claim this is where Jesus commissioned Simon, and renamed him Peter and installed him as the leader of the “church”… do not see that. I do see that Jesus is stating after Peter’s declaration He is Messiah, that on that statement of faith, Jesus will build a community of Believers…

Ekklessia is a compound word which “ek” means “out” and “kaleo” means to call out to or bid… So in the usage we see Jesus calling this community called out one…

Another word that is close to this is “eklektos” which it the word for the “Elect” of Christ. These are the ones promised to be the descendants of Abraham…it is the stars God showed to Abraham… it is those of the faith of Abraham… who is the father of our faith. The usage of this word is also used very specifically of Jesus as the Chosen One… (Luke 23:35). This is also of the promise of Abraham of his Seed, or Offspring would come and bless all nations… (Genesis 22:17-18)

Now how are these two things connected to have me say Church means “called out ones to perfection”?

Easy… The Elect of God are the Chosen ones… Jesus is the first fruit. First it is Israel… who are the Called out ones of God… then the gentiles have been engrafted into Israel…

The Elect are the house of Israel as a whole… as Paul states the two men are now one. No longer Jew and Gentile. These are the one who by faith have turned to Christ.

We are then “in Christ”…

Some claim that the church is not the Body of Christ… yet the scripture is clear that it is…

Ephesians 5:22 – 23. Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Notice in the next few verses that it tells us that Jesus will present the “Church” in verses 25- 27:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

This church seems to be called out to perfection if you ask me….

Also, Jesus cares for the Church… as if it was His own Body… and that is because it is…
Ephesians 5:29 – 30
After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church– for we are members of his body.

Again if this is not clear enough… Colossians 1:24 is pretty clear in what it says concerning the Church being Christ’s Body…

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Colossians also states in verse 28 “We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.”

The whole goal of God is to make the Called out Ones perfect in Christ…

I hope that clears up some of the question as to why I state Church as ‘The chosen ones called out to perfection’.

I had one person who mocked me and accused me of claiming to know Greek… I have never made that claim nor would I… ( BTW, the update is only the link as I had this in the orignal… it only shows ben2590 can’t read and comprehend english…)

In fact I think the real issue is that that person has very poor theology and needs to not worry about “declining” his words… and focus on the Truth in the scripture. To claim we are not called out to perfected in Christ is a slap in the face to Jesus… It is denying the very reason God sent His Son to save us.

It is a denial of Christ’s works in us…

Romans 8: 28 – 30. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I suggest before you judge and condemn me… you look at the scripture you claim to believe and try to grasp and understand it… I would first start out in English as it seems you understanding of Greek is very weak.

So do you still question if you are a “Called out One to perfection?” If you want to become one and find out what I am saying about becoming “in Christ” please look at this link… Though some of the presentation I think is a bit oversimplified, I do think it is a very good presentation of the Gospel. Please feel free to contact me by email if you have questions or want more info in how you can find New Life in Christ.

Blessings,
iggy

---

Technorati tags:
“Carlos Shelton”, Accuser of the brethren, Belief, beyond emerging church, beyond emerging thought, Bible, Billings Mt, Carlos Shelton, Christian, Christianity, Church, Critics, Doctrine, Doctrines of men, Emerging church, Emerging thought, Exchanged life, Father, Fellowship, Follower of Christ, God, Grace, Heaven, Holy , iggy, iggynation, Jesus, Life, Love, Montana, People to People, Rejoice, Religion, Religion and Philosophy, Religiosity, Religious, Sound Doctrine, The Gospel, Theology, Thoughts , Truth, Values, Walk in the Spirit, Word of Mouth Ministries

The Church… Ekklesia

The Church… Ekklesia

I was asked about how I derived that “church” means “Called out Ones to perfection”….

Let me explain this a bit…

First off in Matthew 16:16 -18 Jesus states this:

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

My focus in on verse 18….

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome (NIV)

The literal translation is: I also and to you say, you are Peter, and upon this bedrock {statement} I will build of me the community and {the} gates of Hades not will prevail against her.

It is a little hard to read but you can see that there is an interesting change in the literal… the word “church” is “community”.

Strong’s Ref. # 1577

Romanized ekklesia
Pronounced ek-klay-see’-ah
from a compound of GSN1537 and a derivative of GSN2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):
KJV–assembly, church.

From this you can see that the word can be a calling out… to a specific place… like a popular meeting, religious congregation and at least in the KJV it is translated as assembly or church.

I do not see Jesus talking about “church” as we use it today… meaning “a building”, nor that it means “the people in the building”. At the time of Christ it was used mostly for political meetings. It may have been used in the case of Jews going to synagogue. Many claim this is where Jesus commissioned Simon, and renamed him Peter and installed him as the leader of the “church”… do not see that. I do see that Jesus is stating after Peter’s declaration He is Messiah, that on that statement of faith, Jesus will build a community of Believers…

Ekklessia is a compound word which “ek” means “out” and “kaleo” means to call out to or bid… So in the usage we see Jesus calling this community called out one…

Another word that is close to this is “eklektos” which it the word for the “Elect” of Christ. These are the ones promised to be the descendants of Abraham…it is the stars God showed to Abraham… it is those of the faith of Abraham… who is the father of our faith. The usage of this word is also used very specifically of Jesus as the Chosen One… (Luke 23:35). This is also of the promise of Abraham of his Seed, or Offspring would come and bless all nations… (Genesis 22:17-18)

Now how are these two things connected to have me say Church means “called out ones to perfection”?

Easy… The Elect of God are the Chosen ones… Jesus is the first fruit. First it is Israel… who are the Called out ones of God… then the gentiles have been engrafted into Israel…

The Elect are the house of Israel as a whole… as Paul states the two men are now one. No longer Jew and Gentile. These are the one who by faith have turned to Christ.

We are then “in Christ”…

Some claim that the church is not the Body of Christ… yet the scripture is clear that it is…

Ephesians 5:22 – 23. Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Notice in the next few verses that it tells us that Jesus will present the “Church” in verses 25- 27:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

This church seems to be called out to perfection if you ask me….

Also, Jesus cares for the Church… as if it was His own Body… and that is because it is…
Ephesians 5:29 – 30
After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church– for we are members of his body.

Again if this is not clear enough… Colossians 1:24 is pretty clear in what it says concerning the Church being Christ’s Body…

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Colossians also states in verse 28 “We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.”

The whole goal of God is to make the Called out Ones perfect in Christ…

I hope that clears up some of the question as to why I state Church as ‘The chosen ones called out to perfection’.

I had one person who mocked me and accused me of claiming to know Greek… I have never made that claim nor would I… ( BTW, the update is only the link as I had this in the orignal… it only shows ben2590 can’t read and comprehend english…)

In fact I think the real issue is that that person has very poor theology and needs to not worry about “declining” his words… and focus on the Truth in the scripture. To claim we are not called out to perfected in Christ is a slap in the face to Jesus… It is denying the very reason God sent His Son to save us.

It is a denial of Christ’s works in us…

Romans 8: 28 – 30. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I suggest before you judge and condemn me… you look at the scripture you claim to believe and try to grasp and understand it… I would first start out in English as it seems you understanding of Greek is very weak.

So do you still question if you are a “Called out One to perfection?” If you want to become one and find out what I am saying about becoming “in Christ” please look at this link… Though some of the presentation I think is a bit oversimplified, I do think it is a very good presentation of the Gospel. Please feel free to contact me by email if you have questions or want more info in how you can find New Life in Christ.

Blessings,
iggy

---

Technorati tags:
“Carlos Shelton”, Accuser of the brethren, Belief, beyond emerging church, beyond emerging thought, Bible, Billings Mt, Carlos Shelton, Christian, Christianity, Church, Critics, Doctrine, Doctrines of men, Emerging church, Emerging thought, Exchanged life, Father, Fellowship, Follower of Christ, God, Grace, Heaven, Holy , iggy, iggynation, Jesus, Life, Love, Montana, People to People, Rejoice, Religion, Religion and Philosophy, Religiosity, Religious, Sound Doctrine, The Gospel, Theology, Thoughts , Truth, Values, Walk in the Spirit, Word of Mouth Ministries

In reading a Generous Orthodoxy I have Found

In reading a Generous Orthodoxy I found…

I have said a few times that Brian McLaren makes me think… sometimes I have considered what he says and disagree (surprise!)Yet more often I agree. That is the case with this latest thought.

I was reading a Generous Orthodoxy in which he makes the statement on page 262:

‘According to Bosch: “We cannot point to any other way off salvation than Jesus Christ; at the same time, we cannot set limits to the saving power of God… We appreciate this tension, and do not attempt to resolve it.” This means that anathemas and damnation can be invoked rarely if at all, which will disappoint all who have grown accustomed to resolving the above paradox by means of their invocation. (This ingrained fire-and-brimstone rhetoric so characteristic of Euro-American revivalism persist stubbornly where it has been exported, and will probably come back to haunt us.)

For the rest of us, rather than resolving the paradox via pronouncements on the eternal destiny of people more convinced by or loyal to other religions than ours, we simply move on (as Jesus told his disciples to do), giving all the respect and honor due those who are not convinced by our message (with the meekness Jesus taught), rather than calling down fire from heaven on them (as Jesus told his disciple not to do).”

I agreed with the thought, yet did not remember when Jesus has said not to call down fire from heaven. This intrigued me as I hear often and even on this blog people have questioned my teachings and well whatever else they decide to… I guess.

I took some time to search out the scripture that Brian had referred to and found it.

Luke 9: 49. “Master,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
50. “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”
51. As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52. And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53.but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem.
54. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?”
55. But Jesus turned and rebuked them, 56.and they went to another village. (NIV)

Here we have someone casting out demons in Jesus name… John was a bit upset (?) I mean, “He is not one of us!”

It seems he was concerned on at least to levels:

1. This person was casting out demons in Jesus name. This person had power. This is a bit like when Jesus had sent out the Seventy two in Luke 10… They were given power by Jesus. I see the first issue would be for John… How did this person get power?
2. This leads us to the second issue… “He is not one of us!” John seems concerned that this person is not one of the elite… the top 12… yet has power, which would only come by Jesus if Jesus gave it to him!

Notice one thing also; Jesus is in a time crunch… He is looking at what is urgent and what is important. I do believe there are times to directly address an issue such as Paul did with the girl with the familiar spirit in Acts 16, (which is really another interesting topic in itself as this “fortune teller” , proclaimed “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved… Which leads to the question, why was this demon possess girl proclaiming Jesus as the way of salvation, but, like I said, another topic for another time.

The time crunch was that it was time to get to Jerusalem… the thing is he sent delegates ahead… like in the parable in Matt 22, and also Matt 25. Jesus is going to go to a Samaritan village but he finds out, they don’t want him there as they hear he is going to Jerusalem. You see, Jews and Samaritans did not like each other. In fact there was much hatred for each other. This angered the disciples… they wanted to get back at the Samaritans, for, “they are just dogs… less than human… those half breeds!” I can imagine them thinking. “Let’s call down fire from heaven and get them!!!!”

First off did you notice that James and John say to Jesus, (forgive me for smiling and laughing a bit inwardly, I am sure I have fallen for this many times myself, possibly even very recently! LOL!) James and John say. “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” Did you see it? Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?”

Power had gone to their head! LOL! They forgot where their own power came from… and how quickly they did that… on one hand John is pondering how this guy get power from Jesus to cast out demons, ( I know I am inserting my own thoughts here, yet I think that is the gist of the thought that is expressed), then the next moment… think the power is from himself and James!

But, here is the kicker…

Jesus turns and rebukes them! And Jesus just bypassed the village.

I see at least three things here in play.

1. A power struggle. Where does this power come from? The disciples often forgot it was Jesus.
2. Jesus rebuked the disciples.
3. Jesus does not confront but bypasses the village but without rebuking the people of the village.

Now I am not a Greek scholar nor have I ever said I was… In fact I have said I was not… LOL! I do have a trusty old Strong’s Concordance and a good understanding of language and words. With that God has blessed me much… often if I think I need further insight or need or more confirmation that my “hunch” on a word is right, I go to my friends who are Greek scholars. Here is my hunch…

I looked up the word rebuke. I see this word thrown around a bit yet, it has been a while since I looked it up. This is from Strong’s:

Strong’s Ref. # 2008
Romanized epitimao
Pronounced ep-ee-tee-mah’-o
from GSN1909 and GSN5091; to tax upon, i.e. censure or admonish; by implication, forbid:
KJV–(straitly) charge, rebuke.

When Jesus “rebuked” them it was strong language. It was in a way saying, “SHUT UP! YOU ARE NOT EVEN TO GO THERE!”

Meaning… simply… that they were infringing on God’s territory of judgment. They seemed to miss the mission (as I often wonder if many of us have today), and as stated by Jesus Himself; Luke 6:37. “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven… and also in John chapter 3: 16. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (NIV)

John goes on to say this about the Father and judging…

John 5: 22. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23. that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. (NIV)

So the Father judges no one but has said that Jesus will judge all yet, Jesus says right after this in chapter 8: 15.You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. (NIV)

You see, we must be careful as we are human and judge by human standards… which is not always just… yet there is one who will judge, yet at this time does not, yet when he does it will be just. The mission of Jesus was to save mankind… and that is our mission even now!

(Now, if you feel like I am railing against you personally I am not, it is that other self righteous person that I am speaking out against, so unless the Holy Spirit is speaking to you and you sense that you are judgmental and condemning of others… then listen to the Spirit. If you think I am railing against “you” on a personal level, chances are I don’t even know you, so just think it is about someone else for now… LOL!)

I believe the judgment happened at the cross. At the cross we were at the mercy of Christ who could have just called down angels from heaven, gone home then sent fire and destroyed us! Yet, he hung on that cross to take on the judgment of God, and justify mankind so that we can be saved! Be careful with what I said there as I know some will attempt to twist it. I am not saying all were saved at the cross, but we were justified and redeemed. Yet, until one comes to Jesus, as David Bosch stated, one will not be saved.

It is counter productive to condemn and cast judgment (since we are told not to by Jesus) and then think we have done the work of the Father… we only deceive ourselves in to thinking we are ministers of peace and mercy and grace, yet we are just self righteous idiots who forget where our power comes from, and think we are the ones doing the work of the Father… not Jesus in us doing it. We even seem to think we are better and greater that Jesus as He said of himself in John 5: “19. Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.” (NIV)

We need to be humble and realize we are to totally depend on the Father as Jesus did and God will do great things in us… through Jesus who lives in us! We can do nothing by our self, unless we see Jesus doing it.

We are to treat others with respect… We are to not judge for ourselves about others spiritual destiny… for we should know our God is faithful and is doing more than we could ever know to save that person. I pray we don’t get in the way and stop that from happening by our own selfish desire to “be like God.” (Gen 3:5)

Blessings,
Galations 6:9-10
iggy

In reading a Generous Orthodoxy I have Found

In reading a Generous Orthodoxy I found…

I have said a few times that Brian McLaren makes me think… sometimes I have considered what he says and disagree (surprise!)Yet more often I agree. That is the case with this latest thought.

I was reading a Generous Orthodoxy in which he makes the statement on page 262:

‘According to Bosch: “We cannot point to any other way off salvation than Jesus Christ; at the same time, we cannot set limits to the saving power of God… We appreciate this tension, and do not attempt to resolve it.” This means that anathemas and damnation can be invoked rarely if at all, which will disappoint all who have grown accustomed to resolving the above paradox by means of their invocation. (This ingrained fire-and-brimstone rhetoric so characteristic of Euro-American revivalism persist stubbornly where it has been exported, and will probably come back to haunt us.)

For the rest of us, rather than resolving the paradox via pronouncements on the eternal destiny of people more convinced by or loyal to other religions than ours, we simply move on (as Jesus told his disciples to do), giving all the respect and honor due those who are not convinced by our message (with the meekness Jesus taught), rather than calling down fire from heaven on them (as Jesus told his disciple not to do).”

I agreed with the thought, yet did not remember when Jesus has said not to call down fire from heaven. This intrigued me as I hear often and even on this blog people have questioned my teachings and well whatever else they decide to… I guess.

I took some time to search out the scripture that Brian had referred to and found it.

Luke 9: 49. “Master,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
50. “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”
51. As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52. And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53.but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem.
54. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?”
55. But Jesus turned and rebuked them, 56.and they went to another village. (NIV)

Here we have someone casting out demons in Jesus name… John was a bit upset (?) I mean, “He is not one of us!”

It seems he was concerned on at least to levels:

1. This person was casting out demons in Jesus name. This person had power. This is a bit like when Jesus had sent out the Seventy two in Luke 10… They were given power by Jesus. I see the first issue would be for John… How did this person get power?
2. This leads us to the second issue… “He is not one of us!” John seems concerned that this person is not one of the elite… the top 12… yet has power, which would only come by Jesus if Jesus gave it to him!

Notice one thing also; Jesus is in a time crunch… He is looking at what is urgent and what is important. I do believe there are times to directly address an issue such as Paul did with the girl with the familiar spirit in Acts 16, (which is really another interesting topic in itself as this “fortune teller” , proclaimed “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved… Which leads to the question, why was this demon possess girl proclaiming Jesus as the way of salvation, but, like I said, another topic for another time.

The time crunch was that it was time to get to Jerusalem… the thing is he sent delegates ahead… like in the parable in Matt 22, and also Matt 25. Jesus is going to go to a Samaritan village but he finds out, they don’t want him there as they hear he is going to Jerusalem. You see, Jews and Samaritans did not like each other. In fact there was much hatred for each other. This angered the disciples… they wanted to get back at the Samaritans, for, “they are just dogs… less than human… those half breeds!” I can imagine them thinking. “Let’s call down fire from heaven and get them!!!!”

First off did you notice that James and John say to Jesus, (forgive me for smiling and laughing a bit inwardly, I am sure I have fallen for this many times myself, possibly even very recently! LOL!) James and John say. “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” Did you see it? Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?”

Power had gone to their head! LOL! They forgot where their own power came from… and how quickly they did that… on one hand John is pondering how this guy get power from Jesus to cast out demons, ( I know I am inserting my own thoughts here, yet I think that is the gist of the thought that is expressed), then the next moment… think the power is from himself and James!

But, here is the kicker…

Jesus turns and rebukes them! And Jesus just bypassed the village.

I see at least three things here in play.

1. A power struggle. Where does this power come from? The disciples often forgot it was Jesus.
2. Jesus rebuked the disciples.
3. Jesus does not confront but bypasses the village but without rebuking the people of the village.

Now I am not a Greek scholar nor have I ever said I was… In fact I have said I was not… LOL! I do have a trusty old Strong’s Concordance and a good understanding of language and words. With that God has blessed me much… often if I think I need further insight or need or more confirmation that my “hunch” on a word is right, I go to my friends who are Greek scholars. Here is my hunch…

I looked up the word rebuke. I see this word thrown around a bit yet, it has been a while since I looked it up. This is from Strong’s:

Strong’s Ref. # 2008
Romanized epitimao
Pronounced ep-ee-tee-mah’-o
from GSN1909 and GSN5091; to tax upon, i.e. censure or admonish; by implication, forbid:
KJV–(straitly) charge, rebuke.

When Jesus “rebuked” them it was strong language. It was in a way saying, “SHUT UP! YOU ARE NOT EVEN TO GO THERE!”

Meaning… simply… that they were infringing on God’s territory of judgment. They seemed to miss the mission (as I often wonder if many of us have today), and as stated by Jesus Himself; Luke 6:37. “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven… and also in John chapter 3: 16. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (NIV)

John goes on to say this about the Father and judging…

John 5: 22. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23. that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. (NIV)

So the Father judges no one but has said that Jesus will judge all yet, Jesus says right after this in chapter 8: 15.You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. (NIV)

You see, we must be careful as we are human and judge by human standards… which is not always just… yet there is one who will judge, yet at this time does not, yet when he does it will be just. The mission of Jesus was to save mankind… and that is our mission even now!

(Now, if you feel like I am railing against you personally I am not, it is that other self righteous person that I am speaking out against, so unless the Holy Spirit is speaking to you and you sense that you are judgmental and condemning of others… then listen to the Spirit. If you think I am railing against “you” on a personal level, chances are I don’t even know you, so just think it is about someone else for now… LOL!)

I believe the judgment happened at the cross. At the cross we were at the mercy of Christ who could have just called down angels from heaven, gone home then sent fire and destroyed us! Yet, he hung on that cross to take on the judgment of God, and justify mankind so that we can be saved! Be careful with what I said there as I know some will attempt to twist it. I am not saying all were saved at the cross, but we were justified and redeemed. Yet, until one comes to Jesus, as David Bosch stated, one will not be saved.

It is counter productive to condemn and cast judgment (since we are told not to by Jesus) and then think we have done the work of the Father… we only deceive ourselves in to thinking we are ministers of peace and mercy and grace, yet we are just self righteous idiots who forget where our power comes from, and think we are the ones doing the work of the Father… not Jesus in us doing it. We even seem to think we are better and greater that Jesus as He said of himself in John 5: “19. Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.” (NIV)

We need to be humble and realize we are to totally depend on the Father as Jesus did and God will do great things in us… through Jesus who lives in us! We can do nothing by our self, unless we see Jesus doing it.

We are to treat others with respect… We are to not judge for ourselves about others spiritual destiny… for we should know our God is faithful and is doing more than we could ever know to save that person. I pray we don’t get in the way and stop that from happening by our own selfish desire to “be like God.” (Gen 3:5)

Blessings,
Galations 6:9-10
iggy

Redefining church

Redefining thoughts on “Church”.

I do not know Greek or Hebrew, yet I have a trusty Strong’s concordance and a basic understanding on how words are constructed. With these tools, God has shown me much.

I have been having some radical thoughts about this whole “Church” idea. As I do more study I find that somehow maybe the idea of “church” was lost in the translation. Literally.

The first time the word appears is in Matthew16: 18:

18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

The first thing about this is that Jesus would never had used the word church…. Synagogue, maybe, religion…. That is what some seem to think. Institution? That is what it has been interpreted as.

But……

In the literal translation they use the word “community” instead of “Church”. Now, that sounds more like Jesus to me.

18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my community, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Now if one goes deeper here into the Greek we see something even more interesting.

Strong’s Ref. # 1577
Romanized ekklesia
Pronounced ek-klay-see’-ah
from a compound of GSN1537 and a derivative of GSN2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):
KJV–assembly, church.

Notice it says it comes from two words… this is a compound word…. So what are the two words? Roughly in English they are, in a few more words

Strong’s Number: 1537
Transliterated: ek
Phonetic: ek
Text: a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote): –after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, …ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Strong’s Number: 2564
Transliterated: kaleo
Phonetic: kal-eh’-o
Text: akin to the base of 2753; to “call” (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, dir. or otherwise): –bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was [called]).

Breaking this down a bit one might say “called out from”. I like to say, “called out ones.”
Or “those called to completion”….

Put together it gives a connotation of a group or community of people called out to completion. Now, I like that better than “church”.

We are called out ones who gather together as a community. What a blessing that is. With this I see the “church” not as an institution of cold bricks and mortar that needs to
Have air conditioning in the summer, (except in them fire and brimstone churches) and heaters in the winter. It suddenly has a rush of blood to it face, color and vibrance courses through it veins and blood pumps in its heart. It suddenly begins to realize it is alive and in amazement, finds out it is loved. Then to be told that she is a beloved Bride
Betrothed to a Bridegroom, who loves her so much that He is making her perfect in every way, for His Names sake, but also because of His great Love for her.

That is church. It is not that the people make up the church or as some say the people are the Church. No. The church is the body of Christ, this body He loves as His own. We are loved as a husband loves his wife… for that is what we are… His Bride!

One of the called out ones who gather in Billings MT,

Blessings,
iggy

Redefining church

Redefining thoughts on “Church”.

I do not know Greek or Hebrew, yet I have a trusty Strong’s concordance and a basic understanding on how words are constructed. With these tools, God has shown me much.

I have been having some radical thoughts about this whole “Church” idea. As I do more study I find that somehow maybe the idea of “church” was lost in the translation. Literally.

The first time the word appears is in Matthew16: 18:

18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

The first thing about this is that Jesus would never had used the word church…. Synagogue, maybe, religion…. That is what some seem to think. Institution? That is what it has been interpreted as.

But……

In the literal translation they use the word “community” instead of “Church”. Now, that sounds more like Jesus to me.

18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my community, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Now if one goes deeper here into the Greek we see something even more interesting.

Strong’s Ref. # 1577
Romanized ekklesia
Pronounced ek-klay-see’-ah
from a compound of GSN1537 and a derivative of GSN2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):
KJV–assembly, church.

Notice it says it comes from two words… this is a compound word…. So what are the two words? Roughly in English they are, in a few more words

Strong’s Number: 1537
Transliterated: ek
Phonetic: ek
Text: a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote): –after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, …ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Strong’s Number: 2564
Transliterated: kaleo
Phonetic: kal-eh’-o
Text: akin to the base of 2753; to “call” (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, dir. or otherwise): –bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was [called]).

Breaking this down a bit one might say “called out from”. I like to say, “called out ones.”
Or “those called to completion”….

Put together it gives a connotation of a group or community of people called out to completion. Now, I like that better than “church”.

We are called out ones who gather together as a community. What a blessing that is. With this I see the “church” not as an institution of cold bricks and mortar that needs to
Have air conditioning in the summer, (except in them fire and brimstone churches) and heaters in the winter. It suddenly has a rush of blood to it face, color and vibrance courses through it veins and blood pumps in its heart. It suddenly begins to realize it is alive and in amazement, finds out it is loved. Then to be told that she is a beloved Bride
Betrothed to a Bridegroom, who loves her so much that He is making her perfect in every way, for His Names sake, but also because of His great Love for her.

That is church. It is not that the people make up the church or as some say the people are the Church. No. The church is the body of Christ, this body He loves as His own. We are loved as a husband loves his wife… for that is what we are… His Bride!

One of the called out ones who gather in Billings MT,

Blessings,
iggy