Archive for the ‘Confusion’ Category

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I’m not your critic, don’t even know you.

November 14, 2007
I received this in the comments on my post My last words to my HYPER CRITICS . Originally I posted a comment back but then decided not to… but I have decided to let you the reader read this and post your comments to this person.

Be blessed,
iggy

I’m not your critic, don’t even know you. If your involved in the Vineyard movement, I’ll just consider that you have not come to your right mind.

My question has to do with your introductory comment:

“I find it rather strange how some will demand perfect doctrine from others…”

How do you square that with:

I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another…and

…As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace: 11 whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God…and

…knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation…and

… Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar…and

…I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book….

Though no one can demand you must believe perfect doctrine and hold it, the Scripture does. It does it in this way. That which is opinion is not truth. Only that which can be established as true is to be taught. That is what Paul and Peter, Solomon and Jesus were saying: Do not go beyond what is written. Simply, and profound. The rule is this, if you do not know it to be the truth and the only truth, keep your mouth shut, or as Proverbs would say: Even a fool is counted wise when he remains silent, or a fool does not wait to hear the end of a matter before speaking. There are sound words to learn and if there are not, then we have no Bible, even a poorly translated one to refer to.

I will leave you with this:
Teach and urge these things. If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain…So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter…I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them…charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine…If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed…Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers…

The fact is iggy, the Word of God, that is Jesus Himself (ref Revelation) commands us to hold perfect doctrine. It is a simple thing, as I said. Stay within the bounds of what you know. To do more or less is to condemn yourself: “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

To put it in the language of the emergent, get your pompous head out of your posterior cavity and come into the light…

Sorry for the crudeness, but these are straight forward statements of Scripture all agreeing with one another, simple enough that even a child can understand them. I have simple words for my children: The world is not pink, your head is not your butt, and don’t piss on a flat rock. Crude but effective with children and all Biblical, in a weird sort of way. I would not preach it that way except to my kids. They understand it though.

One last thing: What do you have that you did not receive?

Posted by lordodamanor 11/14/2007 12:06:00 AM

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h1

I’m not your critic, don’t even know you.

November 14, 2007
I received this in the comments on my post My last words to my HYPER CRITICS . Originally I posted a comment back but then decided not to… but I have decided to let you the reader read this and post your comments to this person.

Be blessed,
iggy

I’m not your critic, don’t even know you. If your involved in the Vineyard movement, I’ll just consider that you have not come to your right mind.

My question has to do with your introductory comment:

“I find it rather strange how some will demand perfect doctrine from others…”

How do you square that with:

I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another…and

…As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace: 11 whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God…and

…knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation…and

… Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar…and

…I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book….

Though no one can demand you must believe perfect doctrine and hold it, the Scripture does. It does it in this way. That which is opinion is not truth. Only that which can be established as true is to be taught. That is what Paul and Peter, Solomon and Jesus were saying: Do not go beyond what is written. Simply, and profound. The rule is this, if you do not know it to be the truth and the only truth, keep your mouth shut, or as Proverbs would say: Even a fool is counted wise when he remains silent, or a fool does not wait to hear the end of a matter before speaking. There are sound words to learn and if there are not, then we have no Bible, even a poorly translated one to refer to.

I will leave you with this:
Teach and urge these things. If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain…So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter…I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them…charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine…If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed…Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers…

The fact is iggy, the Word of God, that is Jesus Himself (ref Revelation) commands us to hold perfect doctrine. It is a simple thing, as I said. Stay within the bounds of what you know. To do more or less is to condemn yourself: “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

To put it in the language of the emergent, get your pompous head out of your posterior cavity and come into the light…

Sorry for the crudeness, but these are straight forward statements of Scripture all agreeing with one another, simple enough that even a child can understand them. I have simple words for my children: The world is not pink, your head is not your butt, and don’t piss on a flat rock. Crude but effective with children and all Biblical, in a weird sort of way. I would not preach it that way except to my kids. They understand it though.

One last thing: What do you have that you did not receive?

Posted by lordodamanor 11/14/2007 12:06:00 AM

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John MacArthur: Can one be an Arminian and still be saved?

October 26, 2007

I read from two different sources what John MacArthur thinks concerning salvation of Arminians… and really I ended up scratching my head… what does he really believe?

“So, they are diametrically opposed. The question comes, “Can somebody who holds an Arminian view be a Christian?” And I would hate to say they couldn’t be. I really believe that it is possible to be Arminian and to be a Christian…to misunderstand your human capability, to misunderstand the election, to misunderstand the extent of the atonement, even to misunderstand the irresistible nature of God’s saving grace, and even to think you could lose your salvation. But, at the same time–while being confused or ignorant of those things–to know that you’re a sinner and know that the only way of salvation is through Jesus Christ. I guess you could say that someone could be an Arminian and push those points far enough, where they could jeopardize my confidence that they really are a Christian. You could push the point of not being totally depraved far enough where you’re actually being saved by your own works, by your own belief, by your own ingenuity, by your own self-induced faith. And you could get to the point where you could really wonder whether someone understands that it’s all a work of God.

But, I think it would be going too far to say someone who holds an Arminian view, or anyone who holds an Arminian view, is, by virtue of that view, not a Christian. I think there are people who just don’t understand rightly those things, but who know they’re sinners and who cry out in their sin for the Lord to save them. They don’t understand how what they’re doing works together with the great purposes and power of God, and consequently can’t give God fully the glory He deserves for all of that, but they could be genuinely saved, by hoping in Christ and Christ alone.” Source

Or this?

“He (Spurgeon) preached that both predestination and (limited) free-will were simultaneously in full force. He believed that in the end that salvation was wholly of God from start to finish, and yet God secures the complete cooperation of our wills in so-doing. He decried both antinomianism and fatalism (only predestination) and Arminianism (only free will) and said that anyone who denied either of these two truths was engaged in heresy.

He openly called both heresy. I tend to agree. I really like what this guy says since I had come to the same conclusions myself.

But he said something that confused me for a long time and said that John Wesley (a famous Arminian) was a man of God, yes he disagreed with him, but he said he had great respect for the man.

The best explanation I can come up for this is that Arminians are confused about how they came to Christ, but their definition of the atonement, and who Christ is is accurate, as is their view of sanctification (no striving by works), so it is possible Biblically to admit that Arminians are our brothers and sisters in Christ. It took me a lot of thought to get here however as at first glance I thought a heretical viewpoint always produces heretics who aren’t saved.

The message I heard was that Arminians might be on the the right side of the line, but just barely, just a little more confused thinking about other related issues and the line is easily crossed. You don’t have to get the finer points of theology to be saved, but certain basics are required and Arminianism appears to pass the test, barely, and only if you are willing admit that a faulty view of the atonment is not sufficient to block salvation. As time passes I realize that Spurgeon is essentially spouting double-speak, the definition of heresy is a soul-destroying perversion of either the Gospel or the nature of God. There is no such thing as a heresy that doesn’t kill. Therefore, to be technically accurate, if you believe an Arminian can be a Christian, then to you, Arminianism is not heresy. However, many Arminians of today have swallowed enough other false doctrines to sink their ships so there is no need to argue about Arminianism. I for example was such a one. Spurgeon is consistent with most of his forebears however, including Augustine, who first faced a theology similar to Arminianism, and dealt with it as one would to a brother in Christ, and not as one would deal with a heretic who is outside the body. “
Source

Now, talk about double speak! On one hand Arminians are saved, but are heretics and heresy kills… but as you keep reading John he is clear that they are not saved!

So which is it… or is he double minded?

Be Blessed,
iggy

h1

John MacArthur: Can one be an Arminian and still be saved?

October 26, 2007

I read from two different sources what John MacArthur thinks concerning salvation of Arminians… and really I ended up scratching my head… what does he really believe?

“So, they are diametrically opposed. The question comes, “Can somebody who holds an Arminian view be a Christian?” And I would hate to say they couldn’t be. I really believe that it is possible to be Arminian and to be a Christian…to misunderstand your human capability, to misunderstand the election, to misunderstand the extent of the atonement, even to misunderstand the irresistible nature of God’s saving grace, and even to think you could lose your salvation. But, at the same time–while being confused or ignorant of those things–to know that you’re a sinner and know that the only way of salvation is through Jesus Christ. I guess you could say that someone could be an Arminian and push those points far enough, where they could jeopardize my confidence that they really are a Christian. You could push the point of not being totally depraved far enough where you’re actually being saved by your own works, by your own belief, by your own ingenuity, by your own self-induced faith. And you could get to the point where you could really wonder whether someone understands that it’s all a work of God.

But, I think it would be going too far to say someone who holds an Arminian view, or anyone who holds an Arminian view, is, by virtue of that view, not a Christian. I think there are people who just don’t understand rightly those things, but who know they’re sinners and who cry out in their sin for the Lord to save them. They don’t understand how what they’re doing works together with the great purposes and power of God, and consequently can’t give God fully the glory He deserves for all of that, but they could be genuinely saved, by hoping in Christ and Christ alone.” Source

Or this?

“He (Spurgeon) preached that both predestination and (limited) free-will were simultaneously in full force. He believed that in the end that salvation was wholly of God from start to finish, and yet God secures the complete cooperation of our wills in so-doing. He decried both antinomianism and fatalism (only predestination) and Arminianism (only free will) and said that anyone who denied either of these two truths was engaged in heresy.

He openly called both heresy. I tend to agree. I really like what this guy says since I had come to the same conclusions myself.

But he said something that confused me for a long time and said that John Wesley (a famous Arminian) was a man of God, yes he disagreed with him, but he said he had great respect for the man.

The best explanation I can come up for this is that Arminians are confused about how they came to Christ, but their definition of the atonement, and who Christ is is accurate, as is their view of sanctification (no striving by works), so it is possible Biblically to admit that Arminians are our brothers and sisters in Christ. It took me a lot of thought to get here however as at first glance I thought a heretical viewpoint always produces heretics who aren’t saved.

The message I heard was that Arminians might be on the the right side of the line, but just barely, just a little more confused thinking about other related issues and the line is easily crossed. You don’t have to get the finer points of theology to be saved, but certain basics are required and Arminianism appears to pass the test, barely, and only if you are willing admit that a faulty view of the atonment is not sufficient to block salvation. As time passes I realize that Spurgeon is essentially spouting double-speak, the definition of heresy is a soul-destroying perversion of either the Gospel or the nature of God. There is no such thing as a heresy that doesn’t kill. Therefore, to be technically accurate, if you believe an Arminian can be a Christian, then to you, Arminianism is not heresy. However, many Arminians of today have swallowed enough other false doctrines to sink their ships so there is no need to argue about Arminianism. I for example was such a one. Spurgeon is consistent with most of his forebears however, including Augustine, who first faced a theology similar to Arminianism, and dealt with it as one would to a brother in Christ, and not as one would deal with a heretic who is outside the body. “
Source

Now, talk about double speak! On one hand Arminians are saved, but are heretics and heresy kills… but as you keep reading John he is clear that they are not saved!

So which is it… or is he double minded?

Be Blessed,
iggy