Archive for the ‘disagreement’ Category

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Walking through Romans pt 17 chapter 16

July 15, 2008

Walking through Romans pt 17 chapter 16

Romans 16
1I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea. 2I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me. 3Greet Priscilla[b] and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. 4They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. 5Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia. 6Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you. 7Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. 8Greet Ampliatus, whom I love in the Lord. 9Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys. 10Greet Apelles, tested and approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus. 11Greet Herodion, my relative. Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord. 12Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord. 13Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. 14Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brothers with them. 15Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints with them. 16Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send greetings.
17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.
20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
21Timothy, my fellow worker, sends his greetings to you, as do Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, my relatives.
22I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.
23Gaius, whose hospitality I and the whole church here enjoy, sends you his greetings.
Erastus, who is the city’s director of public works, and our brother Quartus send you their greetings.[c]
25Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him— 27to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Romans is a fantastic book. One can be carried away by the doctrines Paul teaches… and one can be carried away with knowledge Paul and forget that we must apply this book to our own life.

Some scholars seem to think that this chapter is either a second letter or a separate letter from the rest of the book. Yet, I see that it is part of the Book as the ones delivering would pass through Ephesus on their way to Rome. Here we see Paul greet many in Ephesus. Maybe, Paul had two motives here in doing this. One could be to greet and love on the people in Ephesus. The other would be to show the love of the churches outside of Rome to further encourage those in Rome toward unity in Christ.

Paul greets his “family”. Some may be blood relatives and others “Blood” relatives. It is heart warming to read the different greetings. Of interest for all the “doctrine” we have Phoebe who is referred to as a “Servant” but the word is the feminine form of “deacon”. This sets some who believe women should not be in leadership in the church on their heads. But it is worthy to notice for all the arguments, that Paul addresses this woman this way without issue.

Aquila and Priscilla, or the eagle and the woman as Aquila means eagle had eagle eyes that could find great men of God like Apollos (Acts 18) as well as Paul himself (Acts 18). These mighty workers of God were very important to Paul as they come up in a few other letters he writes. They seemed to be mentioned as equals and as a team. Man and wife who work side by side with each other and with Paul. They also placed themselves in danger to protect Paul.
Paul addresses Epainetus, whose name means “praised”, was his first convert in Achaia which is part of Greece.
Mariam, could possibly be the Mother of Jesus, who was with John. This is speculation as there are at least 6 Mary’s in the scripture. Yet, we do know Jesus told John to watch over His mother.
Noting that some names are gentiles and some are Jew should be a clue to this being a call for unity. Andronicus who name means “man of victory” was a Jew.
Junias which is a woman’s name is called an “apostle” in reading one way, yet it could also be read she was known by the apostles. It is not clear, be she notable as one or know by again a woman is held in high esteem by Paul.
Amplias which means “enlarged” is a Roman Christian meanin he was from Rome and also a gentile.
Skipping a few we find Herodion, a relative of paul and this phrase, “Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.” This seems to be a Roman official who had were believers.

I do not mean to not mention some. I wish I could write more on each person. Maybe someday I could.

One though that has an interesting story is Rufus. He was a disciple of Paul as thought in tradition, was Bishop of Avignon (though there is no hard evidence of this) though he was bishop to a few other churches. He later was living in Rome when Paul sent this greeting. During the persecution of Trajan, Polycarp speaks of Rufus and Ignatius of Antioch who were put to death in Rome, in his letter to the Philippians.
“17. I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18. for such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19. Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.”

This is some of the greatest advice. It seems futile to engage those who are divisive as they cannot see the harm they do others. As I have engaged these types of people I find that their own ambition clouds their ability to see that this does nothing for the Kingdom. It is best to avoid and ignore them. If only I would take my own advise! These people try to persuade the naïve with smooth talk and flattery and spread lies, rumors and slander others, so they can have personal gain be that monetary or the attention of others. The great danger is that they desire the accolades of men exchange it for the works of God. It is best to be ignorant of the evil of these people and leave them to God who will crush Satan under His feet. Giving room for God to work is the best advice I could give. Paul states that a blessing of Grace to those who encounter such people.
“I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.”

This can be confusing to the casual reader. Did not Paul write this book? Then why is this Tertius saying he did? Often one would dictate a letter and another would literally write the words down. This happens even today in business as a secretary will “take a letter” yet the letter is from the one who dictated the letter. So, there is no issue as to the authorship of Romans. Yet, even Tertius sends greeting also.
“25. Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26. but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him– 27. to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.”

This salutation could take a whole chapter to unpack in and of it’s self.
Paul showed us a great mystery. This mystery was Christ Jesus Himself. It was revealed in the Gospel and proclamation of Jesus. Without Jesus the prophetic writings make little sense, yet with Jesus we can not only change on a personal level; we can also have power to reach the nations with the message of Jesus Christ. To this I agree with Paul that we give glory forever through Jesus Christ for God’s great wisdom.

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Walking through Romans pt 17 chapter 16

July 15, 2008

Walking through Romans pt 17 chapter 16

Romans 16
1I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea. 2I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me. 3Greet Priscilla[b] and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. 4They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. 5Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia. 6Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you. 7Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. 8Greet Ampliatus, whom I love in the Lord. 9Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys. 10Greet Apelles, tested and approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus. 11Greet Herodion, my relative. Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord. 12Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord. 13Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. 14Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brothers with them. 15Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints with them. 16Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send greetings.
17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.
20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
21Timothy, my fellow worker, sends his greetings to you, as do Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, my relatives.
22I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.
23Gaius, whose hospitality I and the whole church here enjoy, sends you his greetings.
Erastus, who is the city’s director of public works, and our brother Quartus send you their greetings.[c]
25Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him— 27to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Romans is a fantastic book. One can be carried away by the doctrines Paul teaches… and one can be carried away with knowledge Paul and forget that we must apply this book to our own life.

Some scholars seem to think that this chapter is either a second letter or a separate letter from the rest of the book. Yet, I see that it is part of the Book as the ones delivering would pass through Ephesus on their way to Rome. Here we see Paul greet many in Ephesus. Maybe, Paul had two motives here in doing this. One could be to greet and love on the people in Ephesus. The other would be to show the love of the churches outside of Rome to further encourage those in Rome toward unity in Christ.

Paul greets his “family”. Some may be blood relatives and others “Blood” relatives. It is heart warming to read the different greetings. Of interest for all the “doctrine” we have Phoebe who is referred to as a “Servant” but the word is the feminine form of “deacon”. This sets some who believe women should not be in leadership in the church on their heads. But it is worthy to notice for all the arguments, that Paul addresses this woman this way without issue.

Aquila and Priscilla, or the eagle and the woman as Aquila means eagle had eagle eyes that could find great men of God like Apollos (Acts 18) as well as Paul himself (Acts 18). These mighty workers of God were very important to Paul as they come up in a few other letters he writes. They seemed to be mentioned as equals and as a team. Man and wife who work side by side with each other and with Paul. They also placed themselves in danger to protect Paul.
Paul addresses Epainetus, whose name means “praised”, was his first convert in Achaia which is part of Greece.
Mariam, could possibly be the Mother of Jesus, who was with John. This is speculation as there are at least 6 Mary’s in the scripture. Yet, we do know Jesus told John to watch over His mother.
Noting that some names are gentiles and some are Jew should be a clue to this being a call for unity. Andronicus who name means “man of victory” was a Jew.
Junias which is a woman’s name is called an “apostle” in reading one way, yet it could also be read she was known by the apostles. It is not clear, be she notable as one or know by again a woman is held in high esteem by Paul.
Amplias which means “enlarged” is a Roman Christian meanin he was from Rome and also a gentile.
Skipping a few we find Herodion, a relative of paul and this phrase, “Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.” This seems to be a Roman official who had were believers.

I do not mean to not mention some. I wish I could write more on each person. Maybe someday I could.

One though that has an interesting story is Rufus. He was a disciple of Paul as thought in tradition, was Bishop of Avignon (though there is no hard evidence of this) though he was bishop to a few other churches. He later was living in Rome when Paul sent this greeting. During the persecution of Trajan, Polycarp speaks of Rufus and Ignatius of Antioch who were put to death in Rome, in his letter to the Philippians.
“17. I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18. for such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19. Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.”

This is some of the greatest advice. It seems futile to engage those who are divisive as they cannot see the harm they do others. As I have engaged these types of people I find that their own ambition clouds their ability to see that this does nothing for the Kingdom. It is best to avoid and ignore them. If only I would take my own advise! These people try to persuade the naïve with smooth talk and flattery and spread lies, rumors and slander others, so they can have personal gain be that monetary or the attention of others. The great danger is that they desire the accolades of men exchange it for the works of God. It is best to be ignorant of the evil of these people and leave them to God who will crush Satan under His feet. Giving room for God to work is the best advice I could give. Paul states that a blessing of Grace to those who encounter such people.
“I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.”

This can be confusing to the casual reader. Did not Paul write this book? Then why is this Tertius saying he did? Often one would dictate a letter and another would literally write the words down. This happens even today in business as a secretary will “take a letter” yet the letter is from the one who dictated the letter. So, there is no issue as to the authorship of Romans. Yet, even Tertius sends greeting also.
“25. Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26. but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him– 27. to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.”

This salutation could take a whole chapter to unpack in and of it’s self.
Paul showed us a great mystery. This mystery was Christ Jesus Himself. It was revealed in the Gospel and proclamation of Jesus. Without Jesus the prophetic writings make little sense, yet with Jesus we can not only change on a personal level; we can also have power to reach the nations with the message of Jesus Christ. To this I agree with Paul that we give glory forever through Jesus Christ for God’s great wisdom.

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Great Calvinists: Abraham Piper article

November 28, 2007

Sometimes I just get frustrated with some Calvinists, and in that see all in the same light, but thank God some are not just mean spirited cusses… Some are truly Desiring God.

Here is an excerpt from an article by Abraham Piper .

“There is a letter on Scot McKnight’s blog from a pastor who is very frustrated with certain Calvinists in his church. It would be easy enough to disregard it, pointing out that not all Calvinists are like that or that his use of the word “hyper-Calvinist” doesn’t match correct theological jargon. But that would be missing the point. And, ironically, that reaction would only lend credence to the frustration that motivated the letter in the first place.”

Read the whole article here. Be a Kinder Calvinist

I for one was refreshed and blessed by this article.

iggy

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Great Calvinists: Abraham Piper article

November 28, 2007

Sometimes I just get frustrated with some Calvinists, and in that see all in the same light, but thank God some are not just mean spirited cusses… Some are truly Desiring God.

Here is an excerpt from an article by Abraham Piper .

“There is a letter on Scot McKnight’s blog from a pastor who is very frustrated with certain Calvinists in his church. It would be easy enough to disregard it, pointing out that not all Calvinists are like that or that his use of the word “hyper-Calvinist” doesn’t match correct theological jargon. But that would be missing the point. And, ironically, that reaction would only lend credence to the frustration that motivated the letter in the first place.”

Read the whole article here. Be a Kinder Calvinist

I for one was refreshed and blessed by this article.

iggy

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A Question of innocence…

September 7, 2007
DAVE N has left a new comment on your post “J.I Packer and the Five Basic Truths“:

I disagree with your statement that man is born innocent. The Scriptures do not teach that, do they? Job 15:14; Job 25:4; Ps 51:5; Rom 5:12;Also, you said, ” I think man without God can make a moral choice” According to whose standard? Your’s? I think its irrelevant! Lets talk about what God thinks, not Iggy. God is not interested in morality (according to man) He is interested in righteousness (obedience)! Rom 6:16; I John 2:29; 2 Cor 5:21;Lets keep the main thing, the main thing.

Dave N,

Great! Let’s keep the main thing the main thing… I have no problem in that…

First off you misrepresent what I have stated… Man can make a moral choice… even Calvin states that… You missed that I teach it be a “sustained” choice… meaning man fails! You left out half of what I actually teach. I think you have not read enough of me to know for certain as to what I do believe… a comment is not where I do my main teaching… LOL!

But let’s look at what your verses actually state OK? I am using KJV for its universality… though I prefer the NKJV.

Job 15: 14. What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Notice it states that he should “be” clean? It does not state man is born unclean… only that he “be” clean… that means that man still can be born innocent yet fail in his being clean by God’s standards.

Now also the point that Job states about “born of a woman”… this again is not stating that he is born evil… but again shows my point that man is not righteous and will fail in sustained righteousness…

Job 25:4. How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Job Is asking again the same question.. But this still does not state man is born “totally depraved”. The idea of being born of a woman means that man is born evil or “not innocent” is not a ”Christian” teaching but a Gnostic teaching. If you read the other “so called” gospels Gnostic teachings you will see this taught in the form of the Serpent Seed where some teach that Eve conceived a child from the Serpent… in that then all mankind is evil in its fleshly form…

I want to also point out that Job is not talking about woman being evil and passing on the “evil gene” (that will lead to issues later when we have a “perfect Jesus” “born of a woman”. The phrase born of a woman means “lowly state” it is a sign of humility that God is immortal and man is mortal. Remember in Hebrews 2 6-7 it states:

But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Man is made lower than the Angels who are immortal… that it one of the main points of the incarnation as Jesus “born of a woman” became a man… So to make

Psalms 51: 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is not about being born in sin rather that (if you have ever noticed) King David’s mother is not mentioned and we can only speculate as to who she is… This leaves us a bit of a question as to his heritage… and possibly that he was a bastard child… note David is the anti-type of Jesus who was also thought by many to be a bastard child… so again this is not stating man is born in sin… rather that his mother sinned when she conceived him.

Rom 5: 12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:.

Again, it is apparent that you have not read much of what I write and teach… as I do not deny man is under the covenant of death and will receive the wages of sin… Yet still in this verse show me where man is born totally depraved or that man is not born innocent.

Now, notice Romans Chapter One.

18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Notice here that man has clearly seen by the things made God’s Power and His Godhead.

21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Notice also here that they knew God… yet made a choice not to glorify Him as God? They professed themselves to be wise? They worshipped idols by choice?

24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Notice God then “Gives them up”? That they once were innocent but by their own choices turned to worship creation and not the Creator and God “gives them up”.

25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Notice here that they did not “retain God in their knowledge”…. Meaning they did at one time… but forsook God?

29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Man did know God… and this is not about Adam and Eve as Paul seems to make a distinction as to Adam and all mankind. Man can know God even today and choose to seek Him… but until man sees he cannot please God by his own standards and that God’s ways are much higher… he will not be saved… it is when a man comes to the end of himself and understands that his good is not good enough and that though he may try and try, once he falls from innocence (as all men do Rom 3:23) he enters under the same covenant of death that Adam came under and in that without the sacrifice of Jesus and His resurrection no one can be saved.

Now the issue of obedience I will refer you to the verse below where you quoted me…

Rom 5:19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Notice it is not our obedience but Jesus’. Everything is imputed from Jesus… we do not walk in our OWN obedience as that is the issue in the first place… we have none to walk in… we do walk in the imputed obedience of Jesus for it is “through the obedience of the one man (Jesus) the many will be made righteous.

I then to do good must totally depend on Jesus to do God’s will and purpose in and through me. I have no obedient “works” of my own to offer. (note also Phil 2:12-13)

Now also, I need to clarify, “innocent” does not mean “good” it is neutral as man has yet to sin… but that in his fallen nature will fall into sin.

Also, if you want more info on this topic Irenaeus on Free Will is a good thing to read as he was a contemporary with John the Apostle and a Disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp was directly discipled by John so there is some great heritage there.

Be Blessed,
iggy

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A Question of innocence…

September 7, 2007
DAVE N has left a new comment on your post “J.I Packer and the Five Basic Truths“:

I disagree with your statement that man is born innocent. The Scriptures do not teach that, do they? Job 15:14; Job 25:4; Ps 51:5; Rom 5:12;Also, you said, ” I think man without God can make a moral choice” According to whose standard? Your’s? I think its irrelevant! Lets talk about what God thinks, not Iggy. God is not interested in morality (according to man) He is interested in righteousness (obedience)! Rom 6:16; I John 2:29; 2 Cor 5:21;Lets keep the main thing, the main thing.

Dave N,

Great! Let’s keep the main thing the main thing… I have no problem in that…

First off you misrepresent what I have stated… Man can make a moral choice… even Calvin states that… You missed that I teach it be a “sustained” choice… meaning man fails! You left out half of what I actually teach. I think you have not read enough of me to know for certain as to what I do believe… a comment is not where I do my main teaching… LOL!

But let’s look at what your verses actually state OK? I am using KJV for its universality… though I prefer the NKJV.

Job 15: 14. What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Notice it states that he should “be” clean? It does not state man is born unclean… only that he “be” clean… that means that man still can be born innocent yet fail in his being clean by God’s standards.

Now also the point that Job states about “born of a woman”… this again is not stating that he is born evil… but again shows my point that man is not righteous and will fail in sustained righteousness…

Job 25:4. How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Job Is asking again the same question.. But this still does not state man is born “totally depraved”. The idea of being born of a woman means that man is born evil or “not innocent” is not a ”Christian” teaching but a Gnostic teaching. If you read the other “so called” gospels Gnostic teachings you will see this taught in the form of the Serpent Seed where some teach that Eve conceived a child from the Serpent… in that then all mankind is evil in its fleshly form…

I want to also point out that Job is not talking about woman being evil and passing on the “evil gene” (that will lead to issues later when we have a “perfect Jesus” “born of a woman”. The phrase born of a woman means “lowly state” it is a sign of humility that God is immortal and man is mortal. Remember in Hebrews 2 6-7 it states:

But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Man is made lower than the Angels who are immortal… that it one of the main points of the incarnation as Jesus “born of a woman” became a man… So to make

Psalms 51: 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is not about being born in sin rather that (if you have ever noticed) King David’s mother is not mentioned and we can only speculate as to who she is… This leaves us a bit of a question as to his heritage… and possibly that he was a bastard child… note David is the anti-type of Jesus who was also thought by many to be a bastard child… so again this is not stating man is born in sin… rather that his mother sinned when she conceived him.

Rom 5: 12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:.

Again, it is apparent that you have not read much of what I write and teach… as I do not deny man is under the covenant of death and will receive the wages of sin… Yet still in this verse show me where man is born totally depraved or that man is not born innocent.

Now, notice Romans Chapter One.

18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Notice here that man has clearly seen by the things made God’s Power and His Godhead.

21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Notice also here that they knew God… yet made a choice not to glorify Him as God? They professed themselves to be wise? They worshipped idols by choice?

24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Notice God then “Gives them up”? That they once were innocent but by their own choices turned to worship creation and not the Creator and God “gives them up”.

25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Notice here that they did not “retain God in their knowledge”…. Meaning they did at one time… but forsook God?

29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Man did know God… and this is not about Adam and Eve as Paul seems to make a distinction as to Adam and all mankind. Man can know God even today and choose to seek Him… but until man sees he cannot please God by his own standards and that God’s ways are much higher… he will not be saved… it is when a man comes to the end of himself and understands that his good is not good enough and that though he may try and try, once he falls from innocence (as all men do Rom 3:23) he enters under the same covenant of death that Adam came under and in that without the sacrifice of Jesus and His resurrection no one can be saved.

Now the issue of obedience I will refer you to the verse below where you quoted me…

Rom 5:19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Notice it is not our obedience but Jesus’. Everything is imputed from Jesus… we do not walk in our OWN obedience as that is the issue in the first place… we have none to walk in… we do walk in the imputed obedience of Jesus for it is “through the obedience of the one man (Jesus) the many will be made righteous.

I then to do good must totally depend on Jesus to do God’s will and purpose in and through me. I have no obedient “works” of my own to offer. (note also Phil 2:12-13)

Now also, I need to clarify, “innocent” does not mean “good” it is neutral as man has yet to sin… but that in his fallen nature will fall into sin.

Also, if you want more info on this topic Irenaeus on Free Will is a good thing to read as he was a contemporary with John the Apostle and a Disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp was directly discipled by John so there is some great heritage there.

Be Blessed,
iggy

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Ken Silva will be blessed next week!

August 21, 2007
I’ve decided that Tuesday the 28th of August will be the day.

Please join us to pray and fast for Ken Silva to be blessed of God and in the greater hope to end this so called Truth War…

Blessed are the peace makers.” ~ Jesus The Messiah

Blessings,
iggy