Archive for the ‘critics of the emerging church’ Category
Been a weird but busy couple of weeks
September 14, 2010Around the blogosphere: Points of interest and discussion
May 1, 2010a2a_linkname=document.title;a2a_linkurl=location.href;
Nothing amazes me anymore: Church Burns Bibles on Halloween
October 15, 2009Repost- What I have learned from my critics
September 3, 2009Disclaimer: First off if you disagree with me, that is fine and to disagree and talk and discuss in a way that is respectful and thoughtful is a great and wonderful thing. In this we can grow with each other. This post is in no way about you. So please take this in the context of those who attack and judge… not seek to gain understanding. In this I see that it is out of love that many of you have approached me… and even ending our disagreements with kind words. It is not a sin to disagree, especially on minor things. Personally I have learned to hold tightly to the essentials, and loosely to the non essentials. In that I mean give grace in areas that though may be important, do not keep one from gaining salvation that comes from Jesus alone.
So what have I learned from my critics?
Truth: Romans 13: 9. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11. And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
What I have learned: I learned that it is a good thing to harm your neighbor… especially if it concerns one that they have to be right in their view at the detriment of another. I have learned from you that Love your neighbor does not apply if it interferes with your doctrines. I see that it is better to fulfill the Law, than to Love.
Truth: 1 Corinthians 13
1. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10. but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
I have learned: If one is right and the other is wrong I can go off the handle at any moment and show no to little self control in my actions. I can call names and make fun or ruin someone’s reputation as long as I am right on my view of doctrine. If I see someone who seems to have strong views and may even envy them, it is better to mock them and tear them down because they could lead others astray and to trust God with judgment would be unheard of.
I have learned that politeness is not a ‘christian’ virtue, nor kindness, for anger as long as it is ‘righteous anger’ can justify most any action… and self justification is one of the main unwritten doctrines I have found you follow. I learned it is best to keep a long list of wrongs so I can pull them out and read them to mock or use them even if I have to twist someone’s words to make them look bad. I have learned to use evil to protect the truth.
I have learned to not trust that God is working outside of my own actions… so to trust in God is of no value… I must either judge and condemn now, as I am ‘truthing in love’ and save this person from their error. And to even consider what they may know would be an act of humility, which has no place in your unwritten doctrinal statement.
I have learned that love will not persevere if it interferes with your personal doctrine and to give up hope on someone if having any is of no value. I have learned that if love fails… hate prevails. For hate is a ‘christian’ value and a virtue.
Truth: 1 John 3: 13. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you.
14. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 16. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18. Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
1 John 4: 19. We love because he first loved us. 20. If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
I have learned: I have learned that it is not only good but right to hate your brother if he thinks or speaks in any way contrary to my own personal view of doctrine. It is better to sacrifice the brother to be right than to give into self sacrifice. It is better to take away from someone else be it material or spiritual possessions and have no pity on him. It is better to speak the words of love like a seducer, than to love in action… It is better to hate one’s brother in the name of your doctrine, than to love him if I disagree. Jesus and the Bible are only for you to use to abuse others to get your way, and to prove how much you love your doctrines.
I want to thank you for setting me on the path or self righteousness. I now see that Gandhi was very wrong when he said;
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”–-Mahatma Gandhi
I wonder where Gandhi ever picked up on this view? Maybe because he was not a Christian as I have begun to learn to be, from my critics.
Blessings?
iggy
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Re-post: My Values and Beliefs
July 13, 2009
Due to some that have decided to lie about me and what I believe I am doing this “re-post” of what I value and believe. Also note that below are some links to a couple of commentaries I have done as well as a great rebuttal by Nathan Rich concerning accusations against Vineyard.
My Values and Beliefs
I believe… in one God, Creator of all things, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that these three are co-eternal and are equal. Colossians 1:16
I believe… Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That He is the Creator and that all things were created through Him. He is coequal with the Father. Jesus lived a sinless human life and offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all men by dying on a cross. He rose from the dead after three days to demonstrate His power over sin and death. He ascended to Heaven’s glory and will return again to earth to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Matthew 1:22, 23; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1-5, 14:10-30; Hebrews 4:14,15; l Corinthians 15:3,4; Roman 1:3,4; Acts 1:9-11; I Timothy 6:14,15; Titus 2:13
I believe… that the Bible is the verbally inspired Word of God and without mistakes as originally written. It is the complete revelation of His will for salvation and the only unfailing rule of faith and practice for the Christian life. It is God’s revelation of Who He is. ll Timothy 3:16; ll Peter 1:20,21; ll Timothy 1:13; Psalm 119:105, 160
I believe… that man was created by and for God; that by man’s disobeying God, every person incurred spiritual death, which is separation from God, and physical death as a consequence; and that all people are sinners by nature and practice. Genesis 1:27; Psalm 8:3-6; Isaiah 53:6a, Romans 3:23; Isaiah 59:1, 2
I believe… in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit indwelling all believers and thus enabling and empowering the life and ministry of the believer. II Corinthians 3:17; John 16:7-13, 4:16,17; Acts 1:8; I Corinthians 2:12, 3:16; Ephesians 1:13; Galatians 5:25; Ephesians 5:1
I believe… in the Old Testament it was understood that the way to God was through a priest. People went to the temple to give their sacrifice and had access to God through the priest. In the New Testament we are taught that Jesus Christ is our access to the Father and none of us needs to go through anyone – not a priest, a rabbi or a pastor – to reach God. John 14:6; I Timothy 2:5
I believe… Because God gives man eternal life through, Jesus Christ; the believer is secure in salvation for eternity. Salvation is maintained by the grace and power of God, not by the self effort of the Christian. It is the grace and keeping power of God that gives this security. John 10:29; II Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 7:25, 10:10, 14; I Peter 1:3-5
I believe… God is sovereign ruler of the universe, and He is owner of all things. He has made us stewards of His possessions, and therefore man is accountable to God for that which God has entrusted to him. We are called to give ourselves as believers living sacrifices. That means all our resources are to go to God’s glory. Giving can be in many forms, from ones time to money. Leviticus 27:30; Malachi 3:10; Exodus 34:26; I Corinthians 16:2 Romans 12:1
I believe… God has redeemed and is giving man dominion through Jesus Christ over the earth making all things on earth as it is in heaven. John 17:4; Matthew 6:10
My Values are…
To be Missional… (from Friends of Missional one of the best sites I have seen on being missional)
Description of a Missional Church
A missional church is one where people are exploring and rediscovering what it means to be Jesus’ sent people as their identity and vocation.
A missional church will be made up of individuals willing and ready to be Christ’s people in their own situation and place.
A missional church knows that they must be a cross-cultural missionary (contextual) people in their own community.
A missional church will be engaged with the culture (in the world) without being absorbed by the culture (not of the world). They will become intentionally indigenous.
A missional church understands that God is already present in the culture where it finds itself. Therefore, a missional church doesn’t view its purpose as bringing God into the culture or taking individuals out of the culture to a sacred space.
A missional church is about more than just being contextual; it is also about the nature of the church and how it relates to God.
A missional church will seek to plant all types of missional communities to extend the Kingdom of God.
A missional church faithfully proclaims the gospel through word and deed; how the gospel is embodied in our community and service is as important as what we say.
A missional church will align all their activities around the missio dei — the mission of God.
A missional church seeks to put the good of their neighbor over their own.
A missional church will give integrity, morality, good character and conduct, compassion, love and a resurrection life filled with hope preeminence to give credence to their reasoned verbal witness.
A missional church practices hospitality by welcoming the stranger into the midst of the community.
A missional church will see themselves as a community or family on a mission together. There are no “Lone Ranger” Christians in a missional church.
A missional church will see themselves as representatives of Jesus and will do nothing to dishonor his name.
A missional church will be totally reliant on God in all it does. It will move beyond superficial faith to a life of supernatural living.
A missional church will be desperately dependent on prayer.
A missional church gathered will be for the purpose of worship, encouragement, supplemental teaching, training, and to seek God’s presence and to be realigned with God’s missionary purpose.
A missional church is orthodox in its view of the gospel and scripture, but culturally relevant in its methods and practice so that it can engage the worldview of the hearers.
A missional church will feed deeply on the scriptures throughout the week.
A missional church will be a community where all members are involved in learning to be disciples of Jesus. Growth is an expectation.
A missional church will help people discover and develop their spiritual gifts and will rely on gifted people for ministry instead of talented people.
A missional church is a healing community where people carry each other’s burdens and help restore gently.
Blessings,
iggy
Walking through Romans Download
walking-through-romans WordDoc.
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These are the unedited versions. New edited versions will be available soon.
This is free to download, but help a fellow out ok?
Free resource: Response to John MacArthur’s book Charismatic Chaos by Rich Nathan
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Phil Johnson versus the truth…
July 4, 2009Phil Johnson created a rather interesting yet very inaccurate flowchart as to what the Emerging Church (emerging conversation) is about.
To show how it really goes I created this flowchart. Admittedly Phil has better skills in creating such things than I do.
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digg_title = ‘TITLE’;
digg_bodytext = ‘BODY’;
digg_media = ‘MEDIA’;
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So now make your own flowchart and link here to let me know!
Phil Johnson versus the truth…
July 4, 2009Phil Johnson created a rather interesting yet very inaccurate flowchart as to what the Emerging Church (emerging conversation) is about.
To show how it really goes I created this flowchart. Admittedly Phil has better skills in creating such things than I do.
digg_url = ‘WEBSITE_URL’;
digg_title = ‘TITLE’;
digg_bodytext = ‘BODY’;
digg_media = ‘MEDIA’;
digg_topic = ‘TOPIC’;
So now make your own flowchart and link here to let me know!
Greg Boyd: Pathology of the "Religious"
July 1, 2009Greg Boyd: Pathology of the "Religious"
July 1, 2009It’s a matter of identity
May 15, 2009Often I see critics of the emerging conversation take quotes out of context and then building straw men arguments against them.
I admit there are some issues in the emerging conversation… yet that is true in all “movements” or denominations. I feel sometimes that the critics actually hurt people like me who can speak to those in my camp and show them were error may lie. (I also still do not see the conversation as a movement as it loses its prophetic power to speak to this generation)
One area is the area of homosexuality. I agree with Brian McLaren that we need to step back and look at human sexuality as a whole and respond to thinks like divorce, fornication as well as homosexuality. The issue I have is that some are too “accepting” of the lifestyle and not seeing that it is not about accepting lifestyles but about accepting people and teaching them a proper identity as a new creation.
Yet, instead, I see the backlash of the gay bashing crowd… the back lash being “gay is ok”… and that is not even a question to me biblically. Gay is no more ok than if I cheated on my wife… grace covers it, but is not a license to sin, but to do what is good. Is cheating on my wife good? No! So also any sin, gossip, slander, homosexuality or fornication and one and on… are all harmful to us and others and is not expressing the love of God.
Now that does not negate that if we sin… or that we may struggle with sin… that we do not have a Mediator… yet the challenge is not to accept our sin and live in it…. but to overcome it and leave it.
This is not some over night success process… and I think God teaches us through the struggles.
If I cheated on my wife and she gave me the grace of not leaving me, we would have to learn together how to trust and love each other once again… or even for the first time. That would be hard… and not something God would just heal overnight in most cases…
Sexuality needs to be addressed in light of our new identity as New Creations and being Children of God… once that is in place, we no longer cling to “I am gay” or ” I am a drunk” or ” I am a doctor” or “I am a fireman” or “I am a schizophrenic” and so on… We may struggle with these things… (Pride with a job even) but we no longer identify as that being us.
We who are now in Christ are New Creations. Though we still have this corrupted suit of flesh, God now has given us to power and all the tools to live by the Spirit. This means we should listen to the Holy Spirit as he leads us in all truth and have our minds renewed. By having our minds renewed we learn that sin, though forgivable, is not just wrong, but stupid. By learning to live a confessional life, we learn to agree with God when we do stupid things. He does not condemn us and will lift us up and help us to be the living sacrifices he has called us to.
Living or “abiding” in Christ, is about learning to understand what God wants us to know about being fully human. To focus on just our sexuality or job or whatever and allowing it to be our identity we are not believing the Truth of who we are “in Christ”.
I think that anyone who sees sin as God does will realize that if someone is gay, or overweight or any other “sin” they are not allowing the Holy Spirit to teach them.
We all have a big “Fail” sign on our foreheads. Only Jesus has “accepted” on his… and when we are “in Christ” we too are accepted by the Father.
Again, this is not easy to learn for some… there is a struggle yet grace gives us a huge learning curve toward success. God loves us, and by that we learn to love ourselves and others as God does.
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