the mad man screams out to chaos
August 29, 2004Beyond our perception that one sees as chaos is God, to find God is like the calm of a great storm. to leave the center is to be destroyed, to live in the center is to live in peace as the storm rages. the turtles hide don’t they, they see the storm and crawl into shells, can’t see so no harm. Don’t move and no hurt. But, I am damaged goods… the sick one in need of the doctor, my bones need broken to be fit right, my spirit to be broken to be healed and reconditioned for the weight of Truth and Grace. I squirm and wiggle and pray that no one steps on me. Maybe to be used to catch fish…a worm for the Greatest of Fisher of Men. I am laid low to be lifted up… as my savior was before me. To be beaten and to be stripped for all to see… No martyr complex, but a silent prayer to the One to calm my fear, to not run as Judas but to be restored as Peter. Both committing sin against God but differing in their self view of their sin… One who felt unredeemable and one who thought he never would need to be redeemed lifted up and restored to be Jesus’ Rocky.So, do I leave the fighting of the former life… abandon the ones… or do I cause enough pain and torture them with their theology until they give up on me… in hopes as Jesus may have hoped that maybe, at the last supper, Judas may turn and say to Him, “what must I do to be saved?”
When is it the time of Salvation?… for God is Salvation.. so as God is, Salvation is….Now.
blessed,
iggy
emerging thought in Montana 
You make good points Iggy. IMO there is nothing wrong with looking and even running to God for support in everything we do. I don’t quarrel with you if you say that you are allowing God and the nature of your relationship with Him to define you. I support that. What I would like to advise you as an 54 year old elder is to be more careful with the word sin and how you use it and how often. Sin is not a very good word to use often.
Although it is used often in the Torah and later books, I think it was not used or maybe seldom used before Moses. And I think Moses then started to use it very often in describing relationships. But it may be worth to understand that Moses suddenly had thousands of people to take care off at once. He became the governor of a derelict state. He had to make use of this language of sin to define the aspects of the God / community relationships that allowed him to communicate quickly how things were to work between people.
If you look carefully, you will notice that Jesus hardly used the word. Sometimes when he used the word was in context. But he didn’t throw around the word ‘sin’ very often. What Jesus did was to call a spade a spade. IOW, what’s wrong is what’s wrong. The question is if we will ever agree on what is right and what is wrong.
What’s wrong may be connected to ‘sin’ or may not. If you don’t connect it to sin, then you can deal with it more liberally in various contexts seamlessly. But if you connect ‘what’s wrong’ to sin, then actually it may become a liability in more ways than one. It actually becomes a liability in civil society.
One thing I have learned, maybe is right, maybe is wrong, is that I think Jesus can care less about what’s wrong. I think that is our toil but not God’s. He has given us everything we need in Jesus and otherwise for us to be able to make the right choices. You may think this is some form of hyper-Calvinism and it may very well be. But that doesn’t mean I’m hyper-Calvinist. Jesus is not with us to judge us for our wrongs. Jesus is not about judgment. But it is wise and godly to try to work our faith to make the right choices consistently. Is best to think (and at least that is what I’m thinking) of right and wrong as a personal responsibility and not about obedience or holiness versus sin.
If I understand Borg well, what he may be saying is that what’s right is everything sacramental and what’s wrong is everything objectified. Even though Borg would not use the word ‘everything’ for his life. But I’m not Borg, so I use the word ‘everything.’ If we look at what’s right and what’s wrong, in terms of pre-Moses forms then I think it would be easy to communicate perspective, location and progression.
That is my apostolic message for you.
None the less, may your ministry be driven by love.
John
You make good points Iggy. IMO there is nothing wrong with looking and even running to God for support in everything we do. I don’t quarrel with you if you say that you are allowing God and the nature of your relationship with Him to define you. I support that. What I would like to advise you as an 54 year old elder is to be more careful with the word sin and how you use it and how often. Sin is not a very good word to use often.
Although it is used often in the Torah and later books, I think it was not used or maybe seldom used before Moses. And I think Moses then started to use it very often in describing relationships. But it may be worth to understand that Moses suddenly had thousands of people to take care off at once. He became the governor of a derelict state. He had to make use of this language of sin to define the aspects of the God / community relationships that allowed him to communicate quickly how things were to work between people.
If you look carefully, you will notice that Jesus hardly used the word. Sometimes when he used the word was in context. But he didn’t throw around the word ‘sin’ very often. What Jesus did was to call a spade a spade. IOW, what’s wrong is what’s wrong. The question is if we will ever agree on what is right and what is wrong.
What’s wrong may be connected to ‘sin’ or may not. If you don’t connect it to sin, then you can deal with it more liberally in various contexts seamlessly. But if you connect ‘what’s wrong’ to sin, then actually it may become a liability in more ways than one. It actually becomes a liability in civil society.
One thing I have learned, maybe is right, maybe is wrong, is that I think Jesus can care less about what’s wrong. I think that is our toil but not God’s. He has given us everything we need in Jesus and otherwise for us to be able to make the right choices. You may think this is some form of hyper-Calvinism and it may very well be. But that doesn’t mean I’m hyper-Calvinist. Jesus is not with us to judge us for our wrongs. Jesus is not about judgment. But it is wise and godly to try to work our faith to make the right choices consistently. Is best to think (and at least that is what I’m thinking) of right and wrong as a personal responsibility and not about obedience or holiness versus sin.
If I understand Borg well, what he may be saying is that what’s right is everything sacramental and what’s wrong is everything objectified. Even though Borg would not use the word ‘everything’ for his life. But I’m not Borg, so I use the word ‘everything.’ If we look at what’s right and what’s wrong, in terms of pre-Moses forms then I think it would be easy to communicate perspective, location and progression.
That is my apostolic message for you.
None the less, may your ministry be driven by love.
John
john,
As you get to know me I think you will be really surprised as to my view of sin and right and wrong.
Jesus was not concerned with our “right and wrong”, He was concerned for our restoration to the Father. Or as in your case, unto Himself. My view of sin is not right/wrong thinking but opening up to goodness.
Goodness transends the modern view of Right and wrong thinking of sin…
The story of the Good Samaritan…(I am borrowing this thought heavily from Brian McLaren) the robber was on one end of the spectrum…and the priest, levite and Pharisee were on the other side of the spectrum…
a la right and wrong…but these ignored the issue of doing good. Here Jesus was speaking of the “Good” Samaritan…someone in Jewish thought would find a contridiction…for they were half breeds thus impure and not acceptable to God… Here this Good Samaritan does neither right nor wrong, but was good.
If we focus on sin as right and wrong we will gravitate to the “sin”, just as one will tend to gravitate toward anything one focuses on. But, to focus on the Relationship and enter into the Conversation… then growth of character occurres. This growth, is above stopping a behavior.. but prepares us for Eternity and Life when we pass through the door way of death.
I see this as so far from and above and much more worthy of pursute than to stop my pet sin.
Blessed,
iggy
john,
As you get to know me I think you will be really surprised as to my view of sin and right and wrong.
Jesus was not concerned with our “right and wrong”, He was concerned for our restoration to the Father. Or as in your case, unto Himself. My view of sin is not right/wrong thinking but opening up to goodness.
Goodness transends the modern view of Right and wrong thinking of sin…
The story of the Good Samaritan…(I am borrowing this thought heavily from Brian McLaren) the robber was on one end of the spectrum…and the priest, levite and Pharisee were on the other side of the spectrum…
a la right and wrong…but these ignored the issue of doing good. Here Jesus was speaking of the “Good” Samaritan…someone in Jewish thought would find a contridiction…for they were half breeds thus impure and not acceptable to God… Here this Good Samaritan does neither right nor wrong, but was good.
If we focus on sin as right and wrong we will gravitate to the “sin”, just as one will tend to gravitate toward anything one focuses on. But, to focus on the Relationship and enter into the Conversation… then growth of character occurres. This growth, is above stopping a behavior.. but prepares us for Eternity and Life when we pass through the door way of death.
I see this as so far from and above and much more worthy of pursute than to stop my pet sin.
Blessed,
iggy
Cool.
Cool.