Archive for July, 2006

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Point by point with Steve Camp

July 27, 2006


Source:

1. The Scriptures are objective truth (Psalm 19:7-11; Psalm 119:160; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).

Iggy: Yes it is Objective…. Yet it is LIVING… which means it is both subjective and objective. Because it is a very personal relationship… to make it just objective does not allow for a “relational” faith… it makes God and Jesus impersonal. Jesus pointed this out to the Pharisees in (Luke 24, John 5:39). Don’t forget that the Holy Spirit interacts with us and scripture.

2. Scripture is eternal and does not change with the times (Psalm 119:89; Heb. 4:12-16; Jude 3).

Iggy: I think most EC people would agree, yet some are liberal… some are searching…And in that it seems that the modern church would rather silence their voice and invalidate their searching because they do not see it from the modern perspective… thus the EC is here reaching out to the post modern mindset that the moderns don’t understand. I don’t see how Heb. 4:12-16 applies as it does not say anything about being eternal… Nor you Jude reference… It’s not the scripture that changes but our understanding of it… as with when Jesus came and opened the eyes of the disciples. What happened is that Scripture did change… When Jesus, being God, became flesh, the scripture now became flesh and walk amongst us. It moved from being a book of “propositional truths strung together objectively” to being the reality that is Christ Jesus. It is no long just shadows of truth but reality that is in Christ Jesus.

3. It is a more sure word than anyones vain imaginings, personal experiences, or cultural moorings (2 Peter 1:16-21).

Iggy: Again, most EC believe the scripture as their foundation and where we get our values from. The issue though is we see that vain philosophies have entered the modern church and we want to have a purer faith than that of one based on mans reasoning.

4. One question any serious student of God’ Word must ask when studying Scripture is: what does it mean in and of itself? IOW, what does it mean if I were dead? Our personal baggage, personal experiences, personal cultural contextualizations, etc. mean absolutely nothing when interpreting God’s Word (exegesis) and learning what IT is actually saying. The application can be varied–but not the interpretation.

Iggy: this is a very subjective question concerning you view of scripture being “objective”. But I get your point and I think the real issue of a serious student of God’s Word, (which the phrase never is used about scripture in the Bible, but solely about Jesus), is that “what does it mean that I am now alive in Christ?” The death issue for a Christian is dealt with already. Now, I would agree that a non believer must and should consider this question. Again, I agree with the last part and that is one of the big things we discuss and seek to understand more clearly. We see much that is taught today is tainted by, conservative political agendas, Americanization of the gospel (which is what much of the modern church is based on). We in the EC are seeking to transcend the “personal baggage, personal experiences, personal cultural contextualizations” and get to what God intended and Jesus taught.

5. The lens of postmodernism offers only an infantile approach to truth; and does not alter the meaning of Scripture for our time one iota.

Iggy: this is a major bad assumption. I have found that it holds truth to a higher standard as it is now focusing on Jesus being Truth… I do not see that as infantile, but foundational. In fact I have gone round and round with many who seem to think what Jesus said in John 5 concerning scripture and Himself is not true, yet myself and many others believe Truth is the person of Jesus… Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. It is no longer just a bunch of “propositional truths” strung together… but the very Person… It is raising the “if” in the propositional truth, true authority as Jesus Himself would be the source of all Truth and is Truth itself.

6. The EC is arminian (anthropocentric) and it is troubling.

Wow, this is so far off; most I have come in contacted with are Calvinist! Brian McLaren states he is (though greatly modified) In fact I do not see either Armenian or Calvinism as getting it. If you are a Calvinist, you are most probably not a pure one… as I bet you would never baptize an infant for salvation as Calvin taught. So, this is a very false statement. Sorry Steve. I was trying to do a church plant and as I was seeking out backing, I was recommended an organization that is very EC friendly, and was told since I am not a Calvinist they would not back me… You need more facts sir. (I am not an Armenian also as I hold to eternal security, If I personally go back and read the early Father, I stop at Irenaeus as I see that at the time of Constantine things started moving into to justifying the actions of Christians over defending the faith other than that I am strictly Bible for my teachings…).

7. Doctrine/theology in EC nomenclature is liquid, fluid, and adaptable; “resurging to meet the needs of a new generation.”

Iggy: Isn’t that what you did with your music? That is how I got saved! If it wasn’t for Larry Norman, stepping out of the rigid structure and allowing for flexibility God would not have used him to meet my needs as I was coming to faith. There must be a liquid flowing and adaptability in ones faith so that no stagnation occurs. The Body of Christ is a living organism, if we are attached to the Head, then it will grow and live and have it’s being. The same is true on a personal level. The Pharisees believed that their view was the only view… and totally missed the Messiah as He rode into Jerusalem. They missed that God’s ways are not our ways. Isn’t it our call to meet needs of our generation? To feed the poor, to love the unwanted? To tell them about Jesus in both words and action? To love them as Christ loved them?

8. The primary purpose of the local church is not about finding a new technique, understanding postmodernism so we can attract a new generation to its doors, it’s about the glory of God and His worship alone.

Iggy: Again, I think you are confusing us with the seeker/purpose driven movement. I think it is vital we have some understanding of culture… If you really believe this, then why have Jim Carey on your site… and Rush, and on and on… you are using techniques in your own way to engage culture in hope that it will lead them to Christ. I see more people living in the glory of God… and their lives have become worship… in those of the EC. The purpose of the church is to be the Body of Christ and allow Him to Live His life in and through us. It is about going to the world and preaching the Gospel… to be missional. We have turned the Body of Chirst into a lifeless institution. It is a living organism. We want people to come to church, but Jesus said come to Him.

9. No one is attacking the EC here, but evaluating it. Anonymous suggested I haven’t done my homework… Anyone who can’t reveal their true identity which is a violation of the rules of this blog doesn’t deserve an answer, but a deletion of their post. Sorry mate; when you don’t post anonymously in the future, fill out a blog profile and can engage in more than just hyperbole, then we will take you seriously. I don’t allow drive-by posting.

Iggy: though I am not sure that this is more directed at someone who had not followed the “rules” of your site, I think I agree with anonymous if this is you understanding of EC. You see, even in the very statement, you are setting yourself as the standard… your personal doctrines. In that I set Jesus as the standard and walk inHis grace and mercy allowing He that gave His Life for me, then gave His Life to me, to Live His Life through me… for as scripture teaches we are “saved by His Life”. (Romans 5)

Blessings,
iggy

p.s Steve I believe in 1997 you wrote something that renounced your former musical career:

You said:

“Early in my own musical journey I wrote songs that neither represented good music or precise theology. My motives were vitiated; my actions were not godly; and my lips were unclean. The thirst for prominence and position made my heart prideful, judgmental and callused.”

Be careful you are not still just accepting the “adda boys” of those around you… I see it very clearly in your ministry now… I used to see you with very strong anointing on your music and ministry… even if in your own heart might have not seen it “pure”. To many of us you were the next to take the mantel of Keith Green… yet, nothing happened… do not let “shame” be your base, but let the Love of Jesus and the firmness of His salvation and the trueness of His Faithfulness to us by what guides your heart.

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Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition" PT 2

July 26, 2006

Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?” PT2


I was typing a bit fast on pt 1 of this series so I originally had this as point 3. But with a little reflection I see it as better being part 2. (All Scripture is out of the NIV)


2. Often people confuse being obedient with obeying the Ten Commandments, or doctrines or even traditions.

There are so many bad teachings concerning that one must obey the Ten Commandments, doctrines or traditions. I have written much on this topic so I hope that I will either add something or at least not have such a large post… wish me luck!


Let’s start in Galatians. Here we find that there is a purpose for the Law. It here that we hear the admonishment the Paul writes:

Galatians 1: 6.  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel– 7.  which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8.  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10.  Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. 11.  I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12.  I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (NIV)


First thing I want to point out is that Paul is saying that if someone is out to pervert the Gospel and preaching one that is different from the one that Paul preaches… he is to be accursed. First off I know someone is going to go off and say, “See iggy. All your lovey, dovey, mushy loves stuff is so weak and see that there is a time to “judge” another and point out that they are teaching false doctrine.” To that I will say, ‘I never said there was a time not to discern that a teaching is not sound, even more if you read I live by this as I do stand up against those who teach error in the name of Jesus and condemn others because they do not “believe” as they do’… the issue may be two fold

  • They are preaching a for of religion that is based on their performance and that if someone is not deemed as performing to their standard, then I will stand against that as WE are not the standard, Jesus is and none of us can stand up to that standard.

  • Many teach false doctrine that is not “sound” as they are passing down traditions and what someone else taught. This can be generational and denominational… in that many have no idea that their view may not be correct… and in all sincerity they attack out of their own ignorance as they have never tackled the teachings or issues themselves. Often this is most prevalent for those who grew up in the church… many who come to Christ later and have never grew up in the church can’t understand why so often these seem to “know” the right answers, yet do not “live” out the teaching they profess.



Of course there could be many other points, these to me have been the most common. Paul went on later to explain what the Gospel we are to preach is.

Galatians 3: 8.  The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”
9.  So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10.  All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11.  Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12.  The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” 13.  Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14.  He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

I wont go into this right now, but notice that it says the “scripture foresaw”? This is connected to the teaching of “foreknowledge” which I will unfold it with predestination later. Just pointing out that foreknowledge is about what is revealed in scripture and not some Calvinistic predestinational teaching.  In this though on the topic of obedience and the Ten Commandments, notice that before the Law was given, just as Abraham was justified by faith the Gentiles would be also. And that the gospel was announced to Abraham… that “All nations will be blessed through you.”, so one of the components of the Gospel is that the Jews will be a blessing to the Gentiles.


Galatians 3: 19.  What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20.  A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21.  Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22.  But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23.  Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.  24.  So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.  25.  Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26.  You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27.  for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29.  If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


What is the purpose of the Ten Commandments and the legal and ceremonial laws of Moses? To add transgression! Meaning, it is to point out we are sinners. Paul also states this.

Romans 3:  19.  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20.  Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22.  This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23.  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24.  and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (NIV)


Notice that we now have righteousness from God APART FROM THE LAW?
This is even the testimony that the Law and Prophets reveal… it is now the righteousness from God that comes through faith in Jesus that is now our righteousness. In this Jesus IS our righteousness… we have none of our own… that is why Paul stated just before this:

9.  What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
10.  As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
13.  “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” 14.  “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15.  “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16. ruin and misery mark their ways,
17. and the way of peace they do not know.” 18.  “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19.  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.



We have no back up plan… it is either, stand on your own righteousness… or stand on Jesus and His righteousness. We can not add to the righteousness of Christ if one tries they only take away from the finished works of Christ. We are no better than those that professed Jesus, then at the time of the temple sacrifice, ran and got a bull, and offered it for their sin… this is what the writer of Hebrews was talking about.

Hebrews 6: 1.  Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2.instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3.  And God permitting, we will do so. 4. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5.who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6.  if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because  to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (NIV)

Here is an example of this.
I am going to a large city I have never been to before. In that I can see the lights and a lot of activity as I get closer. I can smell the restaurants and the yet, even before I get to the city, I see a restaurant that has some of the food from the city. I stop and taste the food and find it delicious. Someone tells me of a great city relic outside the restaurant and I look at it and a touch it as it is so inspirational… I do desire more, in some ways I have seen, tasted and even felt all this from the city… yet I have not even crossed the city line and really entered it.

In that I turn around and go back as I think I have been to the large city… and yet, I have never been… so I can’t truthfully say I have been there, though I can deceive myself into thinking I have.

One can see, hear and taste the wonders of God, they can come to the cross and sit at the feet of the crucified Christ and get all emotional, but if they have never repented, nor received the Life of Christ… they are still dead in their sins… they can not repent again, as they have not repented n the first place.

Many would do this as they profess Jesus and still felt they needed to get their sins forgiven by giving a bull for a sacrificed… They were not depending on Jesus for their sin… they had not received the Life… and where still dead in their sins… as they did not walk in faith that Jesus had done it all for them on the cross.

So, all this talk about the Gospel… what was the Gospel Paul taught?

Colossians 1: 13.  For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14.in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15.  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16.  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18.  And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19.  For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20.and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21.  Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22.  But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—23.if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (NIV)

Now, with that, this is the Gospel… broken down and nothing added to it. This is where and from “sound doctrine” must come. First as Paul states from a revelation, (Gal 1:12, Gal 2:2) from Jesus, then proclaimed to us, for us to bless others with and proclaim to others… interestingly… it is to “every creature” so it is even bigger as it includes all created beings…

This seem so much simpler than many of the “we believe” I have read in many churches.

Now, that we have tackled the issue of how a believer should use the Law properly… and some added stuff to boot, I will tackle the misunderstanding of what and how obedience works in a believer’s life. Sometime soon!

Blessings,
iggy


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Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition" PT 2

July 26, 2006

Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?” PT2


I was typing a bit fast on pt 1 of this series so I originally had this as point 3. But with a little reflection I see it as better being part 2. (All Scripture is out of the NIV)


2. Often people confuse being obedient with obeying the Ten Commandments, or doctrines or even traditions.

There are so many bad teachings concerning that one must obey the Ten Commandments, doctrines or traditions. I have written much on this topic so I hope that I will either add something or at least not have such a large post… wish me luck!


Let’s start in Galatians. Here we find that there is a purpose for the Law. It here that we hear the admonishment the Paul writes:

Galatians 1: 6.  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel– 7.  which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8.  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10.  Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. 11.  I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12.  I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (NIV)


First thing I want to point out is that Paul is saying that if someone is out to pervert the Gospel and preaching one that is different from the one that Paul preaches… he is to be accursed. First off I know someone is going to go off and say, “See iggy. All your lovey, dovey, mushy loves stuff is so weak and see that there is a time to “judge” another and point out that they are teaching false doctrine.” To that I will say, ‘I never said there was a time not to discern that a teaching is not sound, even more if you read I live by this as I do stand up against those who teach error in the name of Jesus and condemn others because they do not “believe” as they do’… the issue may be two fold

  • They are preaching a for of religion that is based on their performance and that if someone is not deemed as performing to their standard, then I will stand against that as WE are not the standard, Jesus is and none of us can stand up to that standard.

  • Many teach false doctrine that is not “sound” as they are passing down traditions and what someone else taught. This can be generational and denominational… in that many have no idea that their view may not be correct… and in all sincerity they attack out of their own ignorance as they have never tackled the teachings or issues themselves. Often this is most prevalent for those who grew up in the church… many who come to Christ later and have never grew up in the church can’t understand why so often these seem to “know” the right answers, yet do not “live” out the teaching they profess.



Of course there could be many other points, these to me have been the most common. Paul went on later to explain what the Gospel we are to preach is.

Galatians 3: 8.  The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”
9.  So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10.  All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11.  Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12.  The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” 13.  Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14.  He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

I wont go into this right now, but notice that it says the “scripture foresaw”? This is connected to the teaching of “foreknowledge” which I will unfold it with predestination later. Just pointing out that foreknowledge is about what is revealed in scripture and not some Calvinistic predestinational teaching.  In this though on the topic of obedience and the Ten Commandments, notice that before the Law was given, just as Abraham was justified by faith the Gentiles would be also. And that the gospel was announced to Abraham… that “All nations will be blessed through you.”, so one of the components of the Gospel is that the Jews will be a blessing to the Gentiles.


Galatians 3: 19.  What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20.  A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21.  Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22.  But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23.  Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.  24.  So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.  25.  Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26.  You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27.  for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29.  If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


What is the purpose of the Ten Commandments and the legal and ceremonial laws of Moses? To add transgression! Meaning, it is to point out we are sinners. Paul also states this.

Romans 3:  19.  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20.  Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22.  This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23.  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24.  and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (NIV)


Notice that we now have righteousness from God APART FROM THE LAW?
This is even the testimony that the Law and Prophets reveal… it is now the righteousness from God that comes through faith in Jesus that is now our righteousness. In this Jesus IS our righteousness… we have none of our own… that is why Paul stated just before this:

9.  What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
10.  As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
13.  “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” 14.  “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15.  “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16. ruin and misery mark their ways,
17. and the way of peace they do not know.” 18.  “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19.  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.



We have no back up plan… it is either, stand on your own righteousness… or stand on Jesus and His righteousness. We can not add to the righteousness of Christ if one tries they only take away from the finished works of Christ. We are no better than those that professed Jesus, then at the time of the temple sacrifice, ran and got a bull, and offered it for their sin… this is what the writer of Hebrews was talking about.

Hebrews 6: 1.  Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2.instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3.  And God permitting, we will do so. 4. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5.who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6.  if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because  to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (NIV)

Here is an example of this.
I am going to a large city I have never been to before. In that I can see the lights and a lot of activity as I get closer. I can smell the restaurants and the yet, even before I get to the city, I see a restaurant that has some of the food from the city. I stop and taste the food and find it delicious. Someone tells me of a great city relic outside the restaurant and I look at it and a touch it as it is so inspirational… I do desire more, in some ways I have seen, tasted and even felt all this from the city… yet I have not even crossed the city line and really entered it.

In that I turn around and go back as I think I have been to the large city… and yet, I have never been… so I can’t truthfully say I have been there, though I can deceive myself into thinking I have.

One can see, hear and taste the wonders of God, they can come to the cross and sit at the feet of the crucified Christ and get all emotional, but if they have never repented, nor received the Life of Christ… they are still dead in their sins… they can not repent again, as they have not repented n the first place.

Many would do this as they profess Jesus and still felt they needed to get their sins forgiven by giving a bull for a sacrificed… They were not depending on Jesus for their sin… they had not received the Life… and where still dead in their sins… as they did not walk in faith that Jesus had done it all for them on the cross.

So, all this talk about the Gospel… what was the Gospel Paul taught?

Colossians 1: 13.  For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14.in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15.  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16.  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18.  And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19.  For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20.and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21.  Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22.  But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—23.if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (NIV)

Now, with that, this is the Gospel… broken down and nothing added to it. This is where and from “sound doctrine” must come. First as Paul states from a revelation, (Gal 1:12, Gal 2:2) from Jesus, then proclaimed to us, for us to bless others with and proclaim to others… interestingly… it is to “every creature” so it is even bigger as it includes all created beings…

This seem so much simpler than many of the “we believe” I have read in many churches.

Now, that we have tackled the issue of how a believer should use the Law properly… and some added stuff to boot, I will tackle the misunderstanding of what and how obedience works in a believer’s life. Sometime soon!

Blessings,
iggy


h1

I admit I have been reading the nonesense of those who have attacked me in the past.

July 26, 2006

I admit I have been reading some of the nonsense of those who have attacked me… and have really had a good laugh… (Sadly really) at how far someone will go to “be right” and make others “wrong”.

Phil Perkins has been writing on being “anti-missional”. I tried to point out that he is really speaking against the great commission and is not relaying that it is not that emergent’s deny “hell” (some maybe, but not all of us, and even those that supposedly do, may not entirely) but that is the point of “missing the point”.

Phil is at his best… I think at writing satire!

He goes off on some weird tangent of Ronald Reagan versus Jimmy Carter to make a point… which I get but misses the big point, then goes on

“So then, this Christian will stick to biblical vocabulary.”

Then throw out these words also as they are not in the scripture:

Trinity
Missionaries
Sola gratia
Sola fide
Solus Christus
Sola scriptura
Soli Deo gloria

(I am being a bit facetious here as none of these ‘words’ are in the bible… as missional is not also yet to follow through on the logical conclusion of the statement as stated… is silly.)

With that, I say call back all your churches missionaries Phil, cuz they are being missional by going to another country and “missional” is not in “your biblical vocabulary” so I think to follow you logically… neither is to be a “missionary”!

This is another classick case of missing the point! LOL!

The point is… Jesus gave us the Great Commission… get that? Let me spell something out fer ya!

comMISSION.. Do you see it?

Jesus told us to go… and this is Bible right here… Matt 28: 18. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (NIV)

Those where not my words but Jesus’!

God placed all authority on Jesus… though we as Christians do not have to fear His authority as we are walking in His Love… which is the higher Law. We are now through Christ able to walk in relationship with Jesus…

The fact is Jesus sent us to make disciples… not converts. A convert is someone who has just accepted and believes… but a disciple has taken it into their life to learn and build on a relationship with Jesus. Really to make a convert can just amount to casting pearl before swine.

I see in Phil’s post that he is falling into the very thing he is accusing emerging thought to be doing. “Window of vulnerability” was the concept that Reagan used… and effectively. Yet, to miss that the idea of being missional is doing the Great Commission… then to say one is anti – missional based on their assumption that the great commission is only about getting people out of hell (which is a great disservice to what Brian McLaren is really saying), It is setting “getting out of hell” highest if not alone on what the Great Commission is about… and that is making disciples and spreading the Kingdom of God… which included in that is that people “get out of going to hell.” It is a disservice to what Jesus called us to do and not very biblical at all.


Phil is using hell in his arguments the same way Reagan did, yet for the opposite effect. It is to divide, instead of create stability, or rather reconciliation. In many ways this is just a straw man which Phil has again set up to knock down… to make him appear “right”… but really in missing the point… becomes a great parody of the thing he is writing about.

Blessings,
iggy



h1

I admit I have been reading the nonesense of those who have attacked me in the past.

July 26, 2006

I admit I have been reading some of the nonsense of those who have attacked me… and have really had a good laugh… (Sadly really) at how far someone will go to “be right” and make others “wrong”.

Phil Perkins has been writing on being “anti-missional”. I tried to point out that he is really speaking against the great commission and is not relaying that it is not that emergent’s deny “hell” (some maybe, but not all of us, and even those that supposedly do, may not entirely) but that is the point of “missing the point”.

Phil is at his best… I think at writing satire!

He goes off on some weird tangent of Ronald Reagan versus Jimmy Carter to make a point… which I get but misses the big point, then goes on

“So then, this Christian will stick to biblical vocabulary.”

Then throw out these words also as they are not in the scripture:

Trinity
Missionaries
Sola gratia
Sola fide
Solus Christus
Sola scriptura
Soli Deo gloria

(I am being a bit facetious here as none of these ‘words’ are in the bible… as missional is not also yet to follow through on the logical conclusion of the statement as stated… is silly.)

With that, I say call back all your churches missionaries Phil, cuz they are being missional by going to another country and “missional” is not in “your biblical vocabulary” so I think to follow you logically… neither is to be a “missionary”!

This is another classick case of missing the point! LOL!

The point is… Jesus gave us the Great Commission… get that? Let me spell something out fer ya!

comMISSION.. Do you see it?

Jesus told us to go… and this is Bible right here… Matt 28: 18. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (NIV)

Those where not my words but Jesus’!

God placed all authority on Jesus… though we as Christians do not have to fear His authority as we are walking in His Love… which is the higher Law. We are now through Christ able to walk in relationship with Jesus…

The fact is Jesus sent us to make disciples… not converts. A convert is someone who has just accepted and believes… but a disciple has taken it into their life to learn and build on a relationship with Jesus. Really to make a convert can just amount to casting pearl before swine.

I see in Phil’s post that he is falling into the very thing he is accusing emerging thought to be doing. “Window of vulnerability” was the concept that Reagan used… and effectively. Yet, to miss that the idea of being missional is doing the Great Commission… then to say one is anti – missional based on their assumption that the great commission is only about getting people out of hell (which is a great disservice to what Brian McLaren is really saying), It is setting “getting out of hell” highest if not alone on what the Great Commission is about… and that is making disciples and spreading the Kingdom of God… which included in that is that people “get out of going to hell.” It is a disservice to what Jesus called us to do and not very biblical at all.


Phil is using hell in his arguments the same way Reagan did, yet for the opposite effect. It is to divide, instead of create stability, or rather reconciliation. In many ways this is just a straw man which Phil has again set up to knock down… to make him appear “right”… but really in missing the point… becomes a great parody of the thing he is writing about.

Blessings,
iggy



h1

Steve Camp and missing the point.

July 24, 2006

Here are some thoughts I shared with Andrew aka TallSkinnyKiWi as he was pointing a blog by Steve Camp.
Wow, I was just listening to some Steve Camp and telling my wife how he used to stand against commercialization of Christian music… he believed as Keith Green did that it was free from God, and then to be given freely to all as it was not theirs to begin with and if someone could pay… great, if not it was a ministry…. I was contemplating uploading some of his songs that meant something to me “back in the day” to my online radio station… as I have considered that view very cool and a bit “postmodern” and as I was retelling it to my wife, I was wondering a bit about him and what he has been doing….
So this is very disappointing… and another case of “missing the point”.
I wanted to point out that many of the links of teachers are held high in “emerging” circles… (the teaching one, not Rush Limpbo), and also that he is just quoting small out of context quotes… as they are being ripped out of the bigger conversation and place in a “I’m right, your wrong” format. I just don’t care to go there. They are looking for just some point to say ALL is wrong… but miss that there are major issues in their own systematic religiosity. They miss that man’s reasoning is not the pinnacle of our faith… but Jesus is!
His assumption we ALL think alike and ALL hold to the same view and doctrines… even that we ALL “have trouble with absolutes” … missed the fine point that we are not against it, just not sure that the modern assertion is biblical … which is strange to say since we ALL hold the bible so low in our beliefs and values… (Tongue was in cheek as I said that).
I see that they miss that Jesus Himself said that we cannot understand the bible without be indwelled by the holy Spirit, so to assert that one can reason and just read the bible and get saved… without Jesus revealing… is way off track. (I have had two people argue over this on my blog as they attempted to prove that it is propositional truth that we must old told to be saved and I kept pointing out that it is Jesus who saves us John 5:39-40).
Right now I have some guy in the same town who is writing why he is “anti-missional” and I pointed out that Jesus told us to go on the Great Commission… and that was to spread the Kingdom of God… which includes but is not just about getting out of hell… He really has just created a straw man to knock down as he is like Steve camp, missing the point.
As far as deconstructing… that may be the “scholarly” definition, yet, I do not see that as the practical working out of emerging deconstructionism. I see rather the freedom to question and test and see if it is a “man made tradition” or “sound doctrine” and that we have in fact started to transcend the immature arguments that cause divisiveness and focus on the essentials and core of the teachings of Christ (all found in the bible). I have never been in a group of people who can engage in a conversation, with respect and totally disagree and still see the person is more important than “being right”. That does not diminish “right from wrong” but I see it raises it to be more valuable in that it allows the Holy Spirit room to grow people over traditions and man made doctrines.
Forgive me for rambling a bit there Andrew.
Blessings,iggy


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h1

Steve Camp and missing the point.

July 24, 2006

Here are some thoughts I shared with Andrew aka TallSkinnyKiWi as he was pointing a blog by Steve Camp.
Wow, I was just listening to some Steve Camp and telling my wife how he used to stand against commercialization of Christian music… he believed as Keith Green did that it was free from God, and then to be given freely to all as it was not theirs to begin with and if someone could pay… great, if not it was a ministry…. I was contemplating uploading some of his songs that meant something to me “back in the day” to my online radio station… as I have considered that view very cool and a bit “postmodern” and as I was retelling it to my wife, I was wondering a bit about him and what he has been doing….
So this is very disappointing… and another case of “missing the point”.
I wanted to point out that many of the links of teachers are held high in “emerging” circles… (the teaching one, not Rush Limpbo), and also that he is just quoting small out of context quotes… as they are being ripped out of the bigger conversation and place in a “I’m right, your wrong” format. I just don’t care to go there. They are looking for just some point to say ALL is wrong… but miss that there are major issues in their own systematic religiosity. They miss that man’s reasoning is not the pinnacle of our faith… but Jesus is!
His assumption we ALL think alike and ALL hold to the same view and doctrines… even that we ALL “have trouble with absolutes” … missed the fine point that we are not against it, just not sure that the modern assertion is biblical … which is strange to say since we ALL hold the bible so low in our beliefs and values… (Tongue was in cheek as I said that).
I see that they miss that Jesus Himself said that we cannot understand the bible without be indwelled by the holy Spirit, so to assert that one can reason and just read the bible and get saved… without Jesus revealing… is way off track. (I have had two people argue over this on my blog as they attempted to prove that it is propositional truth that we must old told to be saved and I kept pointing out that it is Jesus who saves us John 5:39-40).
Right now I have some guy in the same town who is writing why he is “anti-missional” and I pointed out that Jesus told us to go on the Great Commission… and that was to spread the Kingdom of God… which includes but is not just about getting out of hell… He really has just created a straw man to knock down as he is like Steve camp, missing the point.
As far as deconstructing… that may be the “scholarly” definition, yet, I do not see that as the practical working out of emerging deconstructionism. I see rather the freedom to question and test and see if it is a “man made tradition” or “sound doctrine” and that we have in fact started to transcend the immature arguments that cause divisiveness and focus on the essentials and core of the teachings of Christ (all found in the bible). I have never been in a group of people who can engage in a conversation, with respect and totally disagree and still see the person is more important than “being right”. That does not diminish “right from wrong” but I see it raises it to be more valuable in that it allows the Holy Spirit room to grow people over traditions and man made doctrines.
Forgive me for rambling a bit there Andrew.
Blessings,iggy


Technorati tags:
, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,